Volume 53 Number 09
                    Produced: Tue Nov 14  6:09:21 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aliya for a wayward kohen
         [Orrin Tilevitz]
Early minyan UWS
         [Gershon Dubin]
Internet classes
         [Marc Shapiro]
         [Joshua Goldmeier]
Ring for Kidushin (3)
         [Joel Rich, R. Meir Wise, Mark Steiner]
Throwing bread after the motzi to those sitting at the table (2)
         [Carl Singer, Mark Steiner]
variant or misprint? (3)
         [Gershon Dubin, Perry Zamek, Eitan Fiorino]
Windup Flashlight
         [Michael Mirsky]
windup LED flashlights and Rabbi Karelitz
         [Warren Burstein]


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:43:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Aliya for a wayward kohen

May a kohen married to a non-Jew receive the first aliya as a kohen, and
if not, may he be given shlishi? I could not find this issue discussed
on this list.  Last March, whether a mechalel shabbat could duchen was
discussed, but at least arguably that is a different issue: a kohen who
gets an aliya is receiving honor, while one who duchens is doing a


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:26:32 GMT
Subject: Early minyan UWS

Does anyone know where one can find early Shabbos morning minyanim on
the Upper West Side?  Thanks.



From: <shapirom2@...> (Marc Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:44:48 -0500
Subject: Internet classes

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Jehiel Jacob Weinberg
Wednesday November 15th - December 13 (5 weeks) 9:00 pm 
Dr. Marc Shapiro

Joseph and his Brothers: Textual Explorations 
November 16- December 14 (5 classes) 10:00 am 11:00 am 
Dafna Siegman

Zoo Torah: An Exploration of the Animal Kingdom in Jewish Law and 
Mondays Nov 20-Dec 18 (5 weeks) 
Time: 12:30 - 1:15pm Eastern Time (7:30pm-8:15pm Israel time) 
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From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 08:30:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Mashgichot

Orrin, I don't believe that they conciously or even purposefully do not
hire mashgichot.  In smaller communities, there are plenty of women
mashgichot.  I think that there's a basic training that has happened
over the years that has women in large communities like NY or Chicago,
not even try.  We have a very male dominated community, where even
minhagim/halachos that aer permissible for women to do are frowned upon,
and so the women learn not to bother.  I cannot speak to the issue, if
they actively turn people away, I am not in their offices.  I do know
from speaking to them on the side, that women, for the most part, do not
even try in our community.

Shaya Goldmeier


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:08:16 -0500
Subject: Ring for Kidushin

 My question on the source of the use of a wedding ring (white dress,
walking down the aisle...) was based on an interest in seeing when these
were introduced in general society and when in Jewish society. I would
add standing for the chatan and kallah to that list as well. No halachik
implication, just of interest.

Joel Rich

From: <Meirhwise@...> (R. Meir Wise)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 12:43:31 EST
Subject: Re: Ring for Kidushin

In response to Mark Steiner of course "tabaat" is not mentioned in the
nusach of R Saadia Gaon since the first mention of a ring is in the

And as every practicing rabbi knows you always have to take a coin with
you to give as a non-returnable present to the Chatan in case of the
ring being lost or not suitable.

Rabbi Wise, London

From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:53:40 +0200
Subject: Ring for Kidushin

As I recalled, more or less correctly, the Siddur of Reb Saadya Gaon
reads as follows:

The hatan makes the beracha until barukh atah hashem mekadesh yisrael
[sic].  Then he says:

Arisat li umekudeshet li anti plonita bat ploni ledidi ana behaden kesa
[i.e. kos in Hebrew] uvemah de-it beyh [and there should be in it
something of silver, adds Reb Saadya in an Arabic note] uvhada ketubah
uvmah dekhtiv bah.

Translation more or less--you are betrothed and sanctified to
me - with this cup and with what there is inside it, and with
this ketubah and what is written there (i.e. we have also kedushin

Rings are not mentioned.

Mark Steiner


From: <casinger@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 13:07:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Throwing bread after the motzi to those sitting at the table

From: Arnold Marans <marans@...>
> Can anyone direct me to a source that indicates it is preferable to
> throw the motzi on shabbath than to hand the motzi to those sitting at
> the table. I saw this minhag many times. I was told that it was based on
> the need to differentiate between the Seudat Haavarah, where the motzi
> is handed out, and the shabbath meal. In yiddish the expression was "tzu
> a AVEL mir delangt a motzi un auf shabbes warft min der motzi." It is
> common at a Rabbe's tisch.
>Any sources?

I spent a Shabbos over a decade ago with a friend at Bar Elan -- Friday
night we walked across the way to a Rebbe's Tish.  When the bread was
handed out the "chosed" to my left made a great overt gesture to pass
the challah to the "chosed" to my right -- thus bypassing me.  (Perhaps
he thought I hadn't washed or didn't know the brocha.)  It is a lasting
memory.  In any case -- yet another tzedukah envelope that gets

I believe the origin of the custom (of throwing - not of being rude) is
that one does not get bread directly from one's host (more specifically
the person making motzei) but rather from the Aybishter -- thus whoever
makes motzei distributes the challah indirectly -- perhaps a more
civilized practice (as seen in many homes) is to place the cut up
challah onto a tray for distribution -- but NEVER to directly hand it to
an individual.

Carl Singer

From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:06:46 +0200
Subject: RE: Throwing bread after the motzi to those sitting at the table

My late father-in-law, who didn't miss a minhag ever, used to thrown the
challah at my wife, and I used to chuckle, after all it is forbidden to
throw food--this is in Chazal and also in the shulhan aruch.

But then after I moved to Yerushalayim I went to the Erloi tish, where they
had a bensher published by the Chsam Sofer institute, and there it was
explicit that the Ksav Soyfer threw the bread, in rememberance of the limbs
of the perpetual sacrifice offered on Shabbes.  I then recalled that my
wife's greatgrandfather was a talmid of the above godol. I accepted upon
myself not to laugh at any minhag.

Mark Steiner


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 23:14:40 -0500
Subject: variant or misprint?

From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
> She noticed that the bracha "ahavat olam" had the phrasing "v'nismach
> b'divrei *talmud* toratecha".  I've never seen that word "talmud" in
> this bracha (my sample consisting of Ashkenazi siddurim for both Eretz
> Yisrael and chutz la'aretz).  Is the word "talmud" a variant of some
> kind or another?  Or is it a misprint?

Nusach sefard.


From: Perry Zamek <perryza@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:07:33 +0200
Subject: Re: variant or misprint?

The publishers of these booklets usually set them up in two basic
versions: "Edot Hamizrach" and "Ashkenaz". The "Ashkenaz" variant is not
strictly nusach ashkenaz, since it has to allow for those who daven the
"ashkenaz" nusach sefarad.

Thus you'll find in the bentsching "Ka'amur Poteach et yadeacha...",
even in an Ashkenaz edition.

I imagine that, even if they have three versions (Edot Hamizrach,
Ashkenaz and Sefarad), they may not bother redoing the typesetting on
the first part of Arvit, just to allow for the few words that are
different, and so the Sefarad version of Ahavat Olam creeps into the
Ashkenaz text.

If you are planning on ordering, particularly from Israel, it's worth
having someone check that the item has the nusach you want.

All the best
(Blatant advertisement: You can see examples of a range of birchonim at 

From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:28:34 -0500
Subject: RE: variant or misprint?

I can't speak for nusach ashkenaz of the top of my head, but, FWIW, the
2 Itallian siddurim I have with me (one a mincha-arvit published within
the past 5 years the other a siddur from the late 1800s) both have
"venismach venaaloz bedivrei talmud toratecha . . . "



From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 17:46:02 -0500
Subject: Windup Flashlight

With regard to:
 >> Turning an electric generator will cause a circuit to be opened and
 >> closed. In a simple generator that happens twice per revolution.

David Riceman said:
 >I didn't see this in the page you cited, nor do I think it's true.
 >Perhaps one of the physicists on the list will comment.  If it is true,
 >however, how is one to make sense of the claim that closing a circuit is
 >boneh [constructing] and opening it is soter [razing]?

OK, I'm an electrical engineer.  The simulation shown at the link can 
be used to demonstrate two types of electric generators: alternating 
current and direct current.  The one shown when you first load the 
page is for alternating current in which, as David has noted, a 
continuous delivery of current occurs with no making or breaking of a 
circuit.  But click the radio button that says "with 
commutator".  That now shows a dc generator which has a 
commutator.  The commutator in the ring turning in the center acts to 
switch in and out the rotating winding so that the current flow is 
always in one direction, ie. direct current.  So the circuit is 
opened and closed twice a revolution.

I believe that the generators used in handcranked flashlights and 
generators are dc generators with commutators.  The voltage is used 
to charge a battery.

As far as creating and breaking a circuit being boneh and soter, this 
seems to me to be fairly clear.  The same applies to turning on and 
off a light switch.  You are creating a path for the current to flow 
to deliver power to the bulb, and then you are breaking that circuit 
and stopping the power.  This is one of the prime reasons given for 
not turning on electric devices on Shabbat.  Another is "makeh 
b'patish" (lit. banging with a hammer) which applies to putting the 
final touch on some device to make it usable. This is another melacha 
forbidden on Shabbat.  Another problem (especially with incandescent 
bulbs) is that the filament getting so hot is like fire, so in a 
sense you're creating fire.

Now, if you continuously cranked an **AC** generator to directly 
light a bulb (ie. without a commutator and as long as you crank, the 
light bulb shines, then the issue of opening and closing a circuit 
disappears.)  And if you use an LED (which doesn't give off heat) 
instead of an incandescent bulb, then maybe there is less of a 
problem?  I think then it might fall into the more grey area of "uvda 
d'chol" - something you don't do on Shabbat as it isn't appropriate 
because it takes away from the sanctity of the day.  It may depend on 
what the intended use is.

Michael Mirsky  <mirskym@...>


From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:01:31 +0200
Subject: Re: windup LED flashlights and Rabbi Karelitz

From: David Riceman <driceman@...>
>From: Aryeh Gielchinsky <agielchinsky@...>
>>Turning an electric generator will cause a circuit to be opened and
>>closed. In a simple generator that happens twice per revolution.
>I didn't see this in the page you cited, nor do I think it's true.
>Perhaps one of the physicists on the list will comment.  If it is true,
>however, how is one to make sense of the claim that closing a circuit is
>boneh [constructing] and opening it is soter [razing]?

I'm not a physicist, but I am an electrical engineer.  I haven't worked
with generators since engineering school, but I think I still remember
how they work.  The generator animation that Aryeh Gielchinsky posted
has two radio buttons, "without commutator" and "with commutator".  The
latter does, it seem to me, open and close a circuit (at the two points
during the rotation of the generator when the solid black bar is
vertical, and the circuit's opening is then indicated by the wires
changing from red to black).  However, when "without commutator" is
selected, I don't see a circuit opening and closing.

I don't know what sort of generator is used in any particular
flashlight.  However there are "shake flashlights" which I am sure do
not involve opening or closing a circuit.  A description of how one
works can be found at

I am not suggesting that anyone use a commutatorless generator or a
shake flashlight on Shabbat, only that "opening and closing a circuit"
does not seem to me to be an issue regarding those devices.


End of Volume 53 Issue 9