Volume 53 Number 26
                    Produced: Wed Dec 20  6:22:07 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Blame the victim (2)
         [<FriedmanJ@...>, Benard Levine]
List Priorities (5)
         [Elazar M. Teitz, Janice Gelb, Tzvi Stein, Richard Dine, Joshua
Neturei Karta


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:24:00 EST
Subject: Blame the victim

> However, our approach is that when one suffers, the one who
> perpetrates the suffering is obviously guilty but he will never
> succeed if the victim did not deserve it in one way or another.
> We have to look within to improve and try to better ourselves and
> remove those characteristics or actions that may have been the cause
> of the success of the Holocaust.

This a morally reprehensible statement that exonerates the victimizer
and blames the victim.The reason for the Holocaust was an economic
situation that allowed a stateless people, namely the Jews, who had no
representation or sovereignity, to become the first major group in a
series of victims to be liquidated by the Nazis.The Roma, the Slavs, and
black people were next on the list, along with many others. They just
didn't get to them before the allies invaded and won the war (they
almost lost, but that's another story.)_

This was the largest heist in human history, looting and murder for
political and evil aims, assisted by hatred that had built up, when
convenient, over almost 2,000 years.

Blaming the Jews for what happened to them is ludicrous. The Catholic
church is now accepting the blame for its share, and the other churches
have yet to accept their role in creating the hatred that was started way
back when. The Germans and other governments would not be paying
reparations if they were innocent.

To blame the victims is to give them good reason for them to stop.

This is man's evil, not God's.

From: <LARKSTREET@...> (Benard Levine)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:36:38 EST
Subject: Re: Blame the victim

> Rabbi claims Holocaust dead "deserved it"
> Maurice Chittenden
> ............. Ahron Cohen, an Orthodox Jew from Greater
> Manchester and a leading member of the anti-Zionist Neturei Karta
> movement......... 
> "However, our approach is that when one suffers, the one
> who perpetrates the suffering is obviously guilty but he will
> never succeed if the victim did not deserve it in one way or another."

   This type of tortured logic dicates a world turned upside down, where
evil is off-handedly dismissed as being simply a guilty agent.  It's
especially sad to see the young beautiful ones in this cult being

Benard Levine
Teaneck NJ


From: Elazar M. Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:00:47 GMT
Subject: Re: List Priorities

     In a long and vehement post, Jeanette Freeman castigated the list
both for what its members choose to discuss and for what they fail to
discuss.  I must take issue with both objections.

     First, the issues she classifies as "pure narishkeit" are often far
from it.  What does and does not constitute chillul Shabbos, for
instance, should be of interest to anyone desiring to live a Torah- true
way of life, and this _does_ include discussion of the minutiae of
observance.  Other topics may not be earth-shaking, such as the dikduk
discussions she derides, but they are of interest to many, who have a
desire to learn about it, and present their questions to elicit
information from those members who are knowledgable in that area. (And
of course, it also gives those who are knowledgable the pleasure of
being able to display that knowledge.)

     As for the matters not discussed: perhaps, unlike Ms. Freeman, the
majority of the people here do not see mailJewish as a chat group for
discussing the latest gossip in Jewish life. They may consider it more
as a place to share knowledge rather than opinion, especially about
matters which are already under discussion in many other venues and
about which anything we might say here will have no impact whatever.  To
choose her examples: (a) the current shameful behavior of a handful of
idiots in Iran.  Their actions have been attacked in the strongest terms
by virtually all the groups and organizations with which one would
assume they identify.  Is it necessary to waste our bandwidthh (and give
them still more publicity, which seems to be their goal) by stating the
obvious, that no one here has anything but total disdain for them?
Would anything be written which anyone here is unaware of?  Is there
anything new left to be said that is worth saying?

     (b) The woman beaten on a bus in Yerushalayim.  Is there a single
member of this list who justifies it?  Can anything written here have
any relevance, other than noting, for the umpteenth time, that things
are done in the name of religion for which any religious person hangs
his head in shame? (Parenthetically, Ms. Freeman is wrong in stating that
the death penalty is prescribed for kicking a male in his private parts.
It's not kicking, it's grabbing, and there is nothing more than a
monetary payment.)

     (c) The cancellation of the conference on agunah. We do not know
why it was cancelled, and any discussion would be an exercise in
baseless assumptions which would almost certainly devolve into the
typical divide along the lines of how one looks upon Chareidi g'dolim.
Other than giving an opportunity to some to vent, what is to be gained
from such a discussion?

     (d) The Kolko case. Unless my memory fails me, I recall the topic
of the recycling of abusive teachers being discussed here.  Must there
be a reaction every time the issue comes to light?

     (e) The "abuse of Holocaust survivors by many American Jewish and
Israeli organizations (like the Sachnut, Bank Leumi and the government
of Israel and 22 of the 24 orgs that sit on the Claims Conference)."
This is indeed a topic which could be of relevance, since list members
may likewise be members of the organizations which allegedly inflict the
abuse, and thus might be in a position to do something about it.  If
Ms. Freeman is privy to knowledge about such abuse, let her post it and
begin a discussion.  Perhaps the others are unaware of any serious
problem in this regard.

     She adds, "leaving babies in the street on shabbos and other
narishkeit is more important to discuss on this 'respected' halacha

     If she concedes that this is indeed a "halacha list," then she has
answered her own questions about silence.  What halacha is there to
discuss in any of the topics she mentions which has relevance for list
members? And is leaving a baby in the street indeed a "narishkeit"?

     As for the comment that "many people post anonymously about their
reality for fear of retribution," this presupposes the ability to read
minds.  I always supposed that the primary reason was to avoid
embarrassment.  Perhaps I am just more charitable in my assessment of
others' actions.

     I hope that mailJewish will continue to be a forum for matters
large and small in Torah life, and not become a haven for agenda- driven


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:18:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: List Priorities

Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...> wrote:
> It amazes me the silence on this list about what matters and the energy
> expended on fine points that amount to pure narishkeit. No discussion of
> the major halachic issues currently confronting our Jewish future as
> parents and spouses and our failures in that department--as witnessed by
> the posts about carrying babies.
[snip] because dikduk and
> pronounciation, leaving babies in the street on shabbos and other
> narishkeit is more important to discuss on this "respected" halacha
> list, with so many illuyim on it,
> Did you notice many people post anonymously about their reality for fear
> of retribution?
> What is the message you are sending to the oilam? How are you seen when
> you post narishkeit while the Jewish world implodes from immorality and
> corruption around you and you remain silent?

The items that you mention in your message are news items. I fail to see
any discussion potential in them. All that would be gained by someone
posting to this list about the Holocaust denial conference, or the
cancellation of the agunah conference, or the other items you mention is
for everyone to condemn these actions (or, as we've seen from others who
did post about the Holocaust denial conference, the provision of news
links to condemnations by Jewish organizations).

I don't subscribe to this list for news discussions.  I have plenty of
other subscriptions to Jewish and Israeli news sources. I fail to see
the usefulness of a chorus of "Shanda" on this list about disgraceful
behaviors by Jews in the world.

-- Janice

From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:50:37 -0500
Subject: Re: List Priorities

Another topic we may want to throw into the mix... the practice of
throwing bleach on women whose clothing does not fit your personal
standards of tznius.  This has been done even to newly-arrived American
seminary girls who were you to see them on the street, you would not
even think there was anything non-tznius about their clothing and who
have no idea what they are doing "wrong".  It is sometimes done simply
because of color, style or fit, not because of skin exposure.

Another topic... women who try to escape from abusive husbands who get
beaten by chassidim wearing ski masks.  The protectors of these women,
usually themselves women, are also included in the beatings.

Another angle to this seems to be the fact that the State of Israel has
essentially given up some of its sovereignty to the charedi extremists.
The Jewish State, for political reasons, has long adopted a hands-off
attitude to a lot of serious crimes that happen just "within the
community".  If prodded they will pursue complaints in a half-hearted
way, but they definitely have the ability to investigate and solve
crimes a lot better than they due with these types of complaints.  I
think the kotel incident is a great example ... the bus driver does
nothing (keeping in mind that Egged is a quasi-governmental entity), the
police take a long time to get involved and when they do, they
completely bungle it, letting an arrested suspect get taken away from
their own custody and escape.

Incidentally,, these patterns of violence against women would probably
fall under the U.N. standard of human rights violations.

From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:37:31 -0500
Subject: RE: List Priorities

I think Avi makes excellent points, and I would note as well that if we
love Hashem then discussing even the details of dikkduk should have
validity.  But I think Jeanette hints at a different point which I do
not think I have seen discussed before, perhaps because there is no good
answer, but I will ask the question anyway.  Is there something that we
as members of this Listserv could do directly that would be of benefit?
The discussions themselves are of benefit since they increase our
learning and broaden our perspective.  The occasional calls for tehilim
for someone may be of benefit.  I am not suggesting a fundraising
campaign on this site since presumably most of us give money to worthy
causes.  So I pose the question to the list: With our varying
perspectives on Judaism, the many locations where we live, our many
professions, Jewish expertise, etc., what could we as a virtual
community do to benefit the world?


From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:16:41 -0600
Subject: Re: List Priorities


I can only answer for myself.  I have posted and read many frum blogs
regarding all the isues you raised.  There have been discussions,
fights, and consescions.  The issues have been discussed ad nauseum.  I
have always seen this list as a different sort of discussion group.
First of all, it has always been more civil and respectful of each
other.  Also, it has been very quiet politically and controversally.
The issues you bring up, do not lend itself to a forum here where we all
get digests and read e-mails and then respond.  Unlike a blog which is
almost real time.  I post under my real name in order to take flak for
my ignorance, and to aid in preventing me from using loshon horah or
uncivil language.  Doesn't always work, but it helps.  I simply do not
see this list as a good way of having those discussions.  Some of the
people on this list are posters and commentators on the blogs that we
did discuss these issues.  here it is, Monday morning, and I am just
getting to read your post, and respond.  whereas on a blog, I would have
been finished by sunday morning already.

Shaya goldmeier,
member for a few years already.


From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:31:41 EST
Subject: Re: Neturei Karta

> There were probably no statements by the non or anti religious groups
> because they refuse to recognize that religious (or "ultraOrthodox" as
> they call them) differ in fundamental ways from the Neturei Karta.

A. It's nice that everyone is posting what everyone else issued as
statements, and more interesting that until I mentioned it, no one
mentioned it, so the kefira for that still stands.

As for the above statement, This is a slur, a lie, and blatant sinat
chinom-because I for one, absolutely know the differences, And as a no
longer frum Jew who was "excommunicated" for reporting my ex to the
police for physical abuse and being the basis of the Silver Get Law in
NY, I really, really, really, resent that statement.

I Wuld like to inform you that the conservative and reform rabbis I know
understand very well what the distinctions are, and are often more
informed than some frummies I know who do worse categorizing and
stereotyping--especially when to comes to baalei teshuva. So...Hey! No
double standards here. If I am not allowed to generalize here, neither
is anyone else.

And the promulgation of sinat chinom should be verboten on this list.


End of Volume 53 Issue 26