Volume 53 Number 33
                    Produced: Sun Dec 24 10:59:43 EST 2006

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

doing something about NK chillul haShem
         [Sarah Green]
Impostors in hasidic garb
         [Meir Shinnar]
It's time to put Neturei Karta out of business
         [Baruch C. Cohen]
Neturei Karta at Iran Conference
         [Janice Gelb]
Sweeping Things under the Rug
         [Akiva Miller]


From: Sarah Green <sarahyarok@...>
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:34:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: doing something about NK chillul haShem

For those who believe it will make a difference, please see suggested
addresses to email protesting the granting of an interview by Foxnews to
one of the NK people.



From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:50:42 -0500
Subject: Impostors in hasidic garb

I think that we need to separate out several different issues wrt to the
neture karta.

1.  Have they been rejected by the haredi world, including the antizioni
portion? yes.

2.  Is the rejection based on ideology or other issues?

Here is a stickier issue.  The NK are a group that is not subject to the
usual communal controls, and acts as a loose cannon - and therefore a
tightly knit and controlled community rejects them.  WRT to the
Holocaust denial conference- NK, in their zealous espousal of anything
anti Israel, may have also stepped over a red line too, as much of the
haredi community is, unfortunately, intimately aware of the reality of
the Holocaust.

However, in sofar as the underlying ideology - that is a different
issue.  I think that is the underlying problem.  After all, much of the
more mainstream communities (edah charedit, satmar) are extremely
virulent in their anti israel ideology and propaganda (just sample
websites associated with them or read their newspapers).  The satma
rebbe is reported to have complained (inhis day) over young hotheads who
did anti israel actions on their own -rather than only those he
authorized.  The dismissal of the NK is similar - it isn't because their
ultimate aim, the destruction of israel, is rejected - nor necessarily
the tactics of appealing to nonJews to accomplish their aim .

THus, a few years ago, the CRC, which is the mainstream rabbinic
Organization of the satmar affiliated, and has a lot of hashgachot -
published an ad in the NY Times about why torah judaism rejects Israel -
the difference from NK was one of style, not substance.
(Parenthetically, I have not seen any mainstream organization condemning
the CRC or calling for a boycott of their kashrut (something I advocate
should be done, at the least, on an individual basis, unitl national
organizations are willing to stand up for am yisrael, but that is a
different issue). The real problem that the edah and satmar have is that
these tactics of the NK are done independently without communal
supervision - to cite the article by Jonathan Rosenblum, the
condemnation is for "having ignored the "opinion of the Torah Sages"".
However, nothing is said about the thrust of the NK - the criticism of
the state of israel and the wish for its destruction.

Therefore, it is clear that the difference between NK and the more
mainstream edah charedit and satmar is primarily one of style - perhaps
important - but not fundamentally one of content, and the NK are a
natural outgrowth of the virulent antizionism of the more mainstream
ones - and they can't duck responsibility for their children.

Meir Shinnar


From: <azqbng@...> (Baruch C. Cohen)
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: It's time to put Neturei Karta out of business

To my dear List Members:

We've seen them meet, hug, embrace, and kiss the enemies of Israel
(Ahmadinejad, Arafat, Farakhan, etc).  We've seen their acts of moral
turpitude and we looked the other way and shook our heads in disgust.
We've labeled them 'crazy' and we discounted them because we said they
were a fringe group.  We were wrong.

Cherems are not enough.  Public statements condemning them are not
enough.  They must be put out of business.

The time has come to take drastic measures to respond to the Naturei
Karta chillul hashem. I have come up with a few ideas and welcome your

1. For each member of NK: get their picture, and complete contact
information (name, address, telephone) for public dissemination. Create
a "wanted" poster of their identities. People must know who they are and
where they live. We can then pressure their respective communities but
only if we know who they are. We must know exactly what Chassidic
denomination they belong to. If they dare enter our Shuls, we will throw
them out. When they come to our communities to speak we will find out
where they are staying and who their hosts are and will protest
accordingly. When they eat at our Kosher restaurants we will inform the
proprietors that we will boycott their establishments unless the NK
patrons are asked to leave. We will pressure their Yeshivas to kick
their children out of their schools. We will discourage Shidduchim with
their families. We will not attend their Simchas and we will tell them
why. Again, we must know who they are.

2. Challenge their IRS tax exempt status. Someone is funding their
travel and speaking engagements, and is getting the benefits of a
charitable deduction in the process. We need to alert the IRS of NK's
terrorist affiliations jeopardize their tax exempt status. This will
chill charitable donations to their cause. Let's bankrupt them and put
them out of business.

3. Lobby our political leaders to have them demand that the United
States State Department brand the NK organization (and its members) as a
terrorist organization or as a supporter of terrorism and render it
illegal (like the State Department did to JDL/KACH).

4. Publish all of the Cherems that are out against NK. The Chief Rabbi
of Israel has called for a new Cherem against NK. The Edah Hachareidis
just published one. See the one I've published below.

5. Encourage our Rabbonim and Jewish leaders to stop disregarding them
as insignificant. Acknowledge that they are dangerous. Discredit them.

6. Collect pictures of them posing with Arab leaders and place them on
one screen for everyone to see their atrocious bedfellows: ie.,
Farakhan, Arafat, Ahmadinejad, and their horrific protest placards. The
more pictures, the more horrific the outrage.

7. Prosecute NK in the International Criminal Courts. Follow my logic
here: If Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's stated objective of
"wiping Israel off the map" (his consistent denial of the Holocaust, and
his country's pursuit of nuclear and ballistic missile capacity)
violates the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of
the Crime of Genocide, then wouldn't NK be guilty of aiding and abetting
the enemy (Iran's Ahmadinejad)? I'm not an expert in this area of law,
but what about treason (the crime of disloyalty to one's nation or
state. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or
reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with
an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law
(1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign
government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent
nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to
attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign
country is aided or involved by such an endeavour)?

I welcome your thoughts.

Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
e-mail: <azqbng@...>

Angry Response to Neturei Karta Prayers for Arafat
07:51 Nov-12-04 / 28 Cheshvan 5765

Angry Response to Neturei Karta Prayers for Arafat (IsraelNN.com) The
following media statement was released on Nov 8 in an angry response to
Neturei Karta participation in prayers outside the Percy Hospital in
France on behalf of Yasser Arafat. The statement released by the United
Orthodox Communities of New York which represents a very broad-based
Jewish community, which is listed following the statement.

"Further to our public announcement dated 21 April 2002 [9th Iyar 5762],
we hereby reiterate and declare that hareidi/hassidic/Orthodox Jews
everywhere absolutely reject the treacherous and contemptible conduct of
that insignificant and irrelevant group of misfits and Mechalelei Hashem
[desecraters of G-d's Name], who have again raised their ugly heads and
besmirched and blackened the reputations of observant Jews worldwide.

"Their joining in vigils and 'prayers' for the arch-terrorist Yasser
Arafat [may his name be blotted out] with Jew-haters of all manner, is
an outrage that we cannot ignore and will not forgive. We again demand
that rabbis and community leaders of all communities ensure that members
of this group are refused entry to all houses of prayer.

"These nefarious associates of Jewry's enemies have unfortunately again
succeeded in their crazed hunger for publicity and are being depicted in
local and international media - outfitted in their religious attire -
bewailing the impending demise of a mass-murderer - side-by-side with
Palestinian Jew-haters. The shame and embarrassment to decent religious
Jews worldwide is unbearable.

"We repeat: this contemptible and minuscule gang of traitors to Judaism,
were decades ago barred from our Synagogues and communities.  Their
refusal to abide by the pronouncements of religious and lay leaders of
our communities has made them persona non grata.

"Under no circumstances should the media insinuate that ANY of their
actions are associated with the hareidi or hassidic community.

"We urgently request all media outlets to highlight this fact in any
report on this group's actions and to clearly state that the Neturei
Karta and their advocates have been excommunicated by virtually the
entire spectrum of Jewry".

Representing: Anshei Sfard, Satmar, Bobov, Emunas Yisroel, Ger, Belz,
Bnei Yehuda, Nitra, Viznitz, Munkacz, Vien, Klausenburg, Viznitz, Torah
Vodaas, Novominsk, Torah Temimah, Chasan Sofer, Kiryas Joel - Monroe,
Pupa, Young Israel of Brooklyn, Cong. Shomrei Shabbos, United Lubavitch
Organizations of Crown Heights, Kamenitz, Agudath Israel 14th Avenue,
United Jewish Organizations of Williamsburg, Boro Park Jewish Council,
Debrecin, US Friends of the Eida Charedis, Lakewood Yeshiva


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:56:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Neturei Karta at Iran Conference

Martin Stern <md.stern@...> wrote:
> A few days ago a poster was put up in the chareidi shuls in Manchester
> signed by Rabbi Schneebalg, rav of the Machzikei Ha'dass Communities
> stating:
> We hereby wish to inform the entire Community with regard to those
> individuals who have associated themselves with our enemies and thereby
> endanger Jewish lives that in our view they should be excluded from our
> Kehillos and be denied entry to all our constituent Shuls and
> institutions.
> It is well known in Manchester to whom he is referring.

Very well known, in fact... to the extent that he's had to get police
protection for his home due to outraged protesters. Story at

-- Janice


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:28:35 GMT
Subject: Sweeping Things under the Rug

Martin Stern posted the text of a poster which was put up "in the 
chareidi shuls in Manchester". It read:

> We hereby wish to inform the entire Community with regard to
> those individuals who have associated themselves with our
> enemies and thereby endanger Jewish lives that in our view
> they should be excluded from our Kehillos and be denied entry
> to all our constituent Shuls and institutions.

Then he commented that:
> It is well known in Manchester to whom he is referring.

I feel that this is an example of what Jeanette Friedman was referring
to, when she wrote:

> We have to convince the rabbis to stop sweeping things under
> the rug

Yes, I am serious. This is an example of sweeping things under the
rug. Why did the authors of that poster refrain from specifying who they
are talking about?

The way it is written, it is a mild reminder that dangerous people
should not be allowed into shul. Duh!! Of course one doesn't allow
dangerous people into shul!!

Where is the new information in this poster? What is it trying to tell
me that I don't already know? If it wants to warn me about a danger that
I might not be aware of, then it failed miserably, because I am still
unaware of it. It should have named names. Why didn't it? What is it
afraid of?

I find it hard to imagine how this poster might improve the situation,
even in the slightest way. I hope I'm wrong. But until someone can show
me any value, I can't help but see this poster as the sort of thing
about which its authors might say, "Heh, heh. Now they can't complain
that we've been silent!"

Perhaps some people will say that they omitted the name of the group so
as to avoid giving them additional publicity. If that's their attitude,
then they should have not bothered to print the poster at all, because
it does nothing to improve the situation. If Martin's comment ("It is
well known in Manchester to whom he is referring.")  is accurate, then
why bother putting up the poster?

(By the way, Martin's post was in the thread titled "Neturei Karta at
Iran Conference", so I'm presuming that the enemies which the poster
refers to are the Neturei Karta.)

Akiva Miller


End of Volume 53 Issue 33