Volume 53 Number 99
                    Produced: Wed Feb  7  6:02:42 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Drug abuse in the frum community
         [Frank Reiss]
Eilat not Halakhically Israel (4)
         [Yisrael Medad, Daniel Geretz, Ira Bauman, Rabbi Wise]
A question of applying / comparing ethics with halacha
         [Michael Rogovin]
Rav Kook on "talmidei chachamim marbim shalom"
School Admissions
Traif Cheese Pierogen
         [Harry Weiss]
Two Sedarim in Turkey (4)
         [Binyomin Segal, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz, Leah Aharoni, Martin


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:27:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Drug abuse in the frum community

The drug problem is within those who feel stuck in orthodoxy. The person
fully indocrinated and who adheres to frumkeit will not understand the
need for recreational drugs.  Thus, it is not delusional to say you do
not know anyone into drugs and Frum.



From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:33:38 +0200
Subject: Eilat not Halakhically Israel

The annual Shabbat of Benjamin Council Rabbis was held at Shiloh this
past Shabbat and afterwards, I was discussing the renewed two-day Seder
Pesach p'sak of Rav Elyahsiv and Rav Shlomo Aviner, who was standing
right behind me and listening, said "I keep one day".  Sometimes
succinctness and conciseness is a worthy trait,


From: Daniel Geretz <danny@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:39:27 -0500
Subject: Eilat not Halakhically Israel

Hold on a minute.

About what tourists in Eilat are we speaking?

If they are tourists who are residents of Eretz Yisrael, wouldn't they
keep only one day of yom tov, even if Eilat was technically chutz
la'aretz (even residents who live abroad, as I understand it, keep only
one day of yom tov, although they are careful not to publicly violate
yom tov within the community.)

If they are tourists who are not residents of Eretz Yisrael, isn't the
normative halacha that they keep two days of yom tov even if they are in
an area that for sure is not chutz la'aretz (like Jerusalem)?  (As far
as I know, the one-or-two day debate which applies to non-residents
concerns people of an intermediate status, such as students who study in
Israel for a significant amount of time.  My uninformed opinion is that
the debate does not extend to tourists who are there only for yom tov.)

As far as I can tell, this debate really only affects permanent
residents of Eilat, regarding whether they keep one or two days of Yom

Am I missing something here?

From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 00:13:51 EST
Subject: Re: Eilat not Halakhically Israel

In regard to the discussion about Eilat, I never realized that parts of
Israel could be required to celebrate a second day of Yom Tov due to
sfeikah d'yomah.  Many years ago when I was a volunteer in a kibbutz in
the Beit Shean Valley, I was told that since the conquest of Ezra didn't
include that area, the agricultural laws were kept voluntarily but
without any Chiyuv to do so.  However, I'm quite sure that nobody kept
an extra day of Yom Tov.  Would those poskim who want two pesach seders
in Eilat also say the same thing for those other areas in Eretz Yisrael
not included in the kivush of Ezra?

Ira Bauman

From: <Meirhwise@...> (Rabbi Wise)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:29:16 EST
Subject: Re: Eilat not Halakhically Israel

It was my understanding that the 2 day yom tov issue depends on where
the sheluchei bet din arrived not on the borders of Israel hence maps
are irrelevant.  If there were no Jews in Eilat in Second Temple times
then the Bet Din would not have sent sheluchim.  I do know that the
kehilla in Aram Zova and Haleb (and other towns in Syria and Lebanon)
kept ONE DAY! relying on their tradition that the sheluchim always
arrived there despite Chacham Ovadiyah saying that they should keep 2
days outside Israel.

Reb Getzel Ellinson zatza''l (Ha-Isha Ve-Hamitzvot) who incidentally was
run over and killed whilst cycling in Eilat held that one should keep 2
days!  Reb Nochum Rabinovitch shlit''a Rosh Yeshivat Birkat Moshe (Yad
Peshuta al HaRambam) hold one day.

I am pleased to report siginificant progress with Tzi Dovid ben Avigayil
Avivah. He is now talking, his memory seems to be intact although he is
still not waling or swallowing. Baruch Rofe Cholim (the doctors still
have no diagnosis or prognosis!!!)

Good shabbes - go easy on the fruits!

Rabbi Wise


From: Michael Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:55:24 -0500
Subject: Re: A question of applying / comparing ethics with halacha

Carl Singer writes:
> In other words if you are certain that someone has violated lie, cheat
> or steal -- what, if anything, are you halachically required to do / or
> not do?

and then gives several examples of cheating. I would like to add to his
question the following point. Cheating is not just a crime against the
"system," it also impacts on all members of the system. Cheating on an
exam that is graded on a curve affects my grade: I get a lower grade
than I might otherwise if cheaters score higher than me.  Cheating on
taxes effectively forces the government to raise taxes to compensate for
the failure to report taxable income. If I don't cheat, I am subsidizing
those who do. Illegally renting a basement apartment (which typically
also includes failure to report taxable income) hurts the community
because it increases the strain on community resources, forcing the
government (taxpayers) to increase investment without benefiting from
and increase in tax revenue (overburdened schools, sewers, police/fire,
etc due to the increased population); it also burdens neighbors in other
ways (more noise, less parking, etc).

My addition to the question is that since non-cheaters are therefore
victims, does that change the halachic equation--does that make it more
or less acceptable or required to report the transgression to the proper
authorities that by social contract enforce the laws or do we just sit
and suffer in silence?

Michael Rogovin


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:47:53 +0200
Subject: Rav Kook on "talmidei chachamim marbim shalom"

Heshy Summer wrote:

> I have heard this story twice being attributed to R' Kook.
> It goes something like this:
> R' Kook was asked if there are any jokes in the talmud, to which the rav
> responded, yes - talmidei chachamim marbim shalom ba'olam.

I think that this must be a mistake.

In fact Rav Kook provides a serious, enlightening explanation of this
concept.  The main thrust is, as I remember it and I do not have thje
sources before me, that "shalom" does not mean uniformity and that it is
through the plurality of (valid) Torah opinions and their synthesis that
we arrive at a fuller and complete ("shalem") understanding.

(once again - the terminology and understanding are mine. I believe the
primary source can be found in "Ein Aya" at the end of Masechet

BTW - I heard the "sense of humour" explanation attributed to Yeshayahu


From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:54:47 +0200
Subject: School Admissions

Not quite the original topic but I was wondering if others can add to
the list of "interesting" admissions procedures.

I have heard of the following (but cannot vouch for their authenticity).

1 - Amongst the tasks asked of an elementary school applicant was -
"draw a picture of your parents' bedroom".

2 - Also for young elementary school applicants - "describe how your
father wears tefillin".
This is a trick question - if the child answers well it means that the
father davens at home and not with a minyan.


From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:37:15 -0800
Subject: Traif Cheese Pierogen

>From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
>The following is very much a CLOR question, but I'm curious how people
>would approach it, what other considerations they would take into
>account, and what sources they would consult:
>Say you come home to a shared apartment to find (1) an empty box of
>cheese pierogen bearing a hechsher not accepted by mainstream kashrut
>organizations and (2) a frying pan and a ceramic plate, the latter with
>sentimental value, both bearing apparent pierogen residue.  The hechsher
>has nominally Orthodox standards but a poor reputation for policing
>them.  You've previously asked your roommate not to bring in food
>bearing that hechsher, so this problem will likely recur.

As you said it is a CYLOR question.  There may be one major mitigating
issue.  There is a well know Pirogen brand under a hashgacha that for
years was considered a problem.  If it is that particular one, it has
improved dramatically over the last few year and you may find that the
particular brand of Pirogen is now 100% okay.  That is another reason it
is important to CYLOR,


From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:26:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Two Sedarim in Turkey

A number of people asked why this might be so:
> But I am quite surprised by another part of that article: "The rabbi
> also ruled that tourists in Antalya, Turkey, also must hold two
> Seders."  What is the news here? Can someone tell me why anyone would
> think that Turkey *is* part of Eretz Yisrael?

This is purely conjecture on my part. But consider the following:
1. There is probably little/no native jewish community in the tourist
   areas of Antalya.

2. The jews who are there are native to Israel

So, one _might_ argue that since there is no local competing custom,
(that is, no jews that would see you violate the local custom) one would
be allowed to keep ones personal custom of only one day.

Thus the need to clarify that even in the absence of local jews, the
local custom outside Israel has halachik force, and one is obligated to
keep 2 days even if you are an Israeli.

Again, just conjecture.

From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:16:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Two Sedarim in Turkey

> I don't get what the chidush would be to say that one must keep 2 days
> Yom Tov in Antalya, Turkey!  It is no where near Eretz Yisroel... it is
> over a hundred miles to the west of Cyprus and over 200 miles west of
> Syria.

Note that the quote from the article was "The rabbi also ruled that
tourists in Antalya, Turkey, also must hold two Seders."

The logical point *may* be that the people being spoken about are
tourists from Israel who are there *only* for Yom Tov and are going back
to Israel.  Indeed, I do not know if there is actually a Jewish
community in that area.

According to http://www.allaboutturkey.com/jews.htm

"Today Turkey's total Jewish population is around 26,000 (the second
largest Jewish community in a Muslim country, being the first is Iran),
with a great majority living in Istanbul."

Perhaps the question was specifically about the second seder rather than
keeping hilchos Yom Tov Indeed, what are Israelis who happen to be in
Chutz La'Aretz supposed to do for the second seder rather than just
being asur in melacha?  Could that be a different question?

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water

From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 23:22:30 +0200
Subject: RE: Two Sedarim in Turkey

Ari and others asked:

What exactly would be the idea for NOT keeping two days in Antalya, or
anywhere else, in Turkey?

There are poskim that hold that bnei Eretz Yisroel do not need to hold
two days in Galut. Rav Elyashiv's teshuva was probably directed at
numerous Israelis (many of them frum), who travel to Turkey for the

BTW, when we asked Rav Dov Lior the same question before traveling to
the US on Sukkot, he told us that we could do melacha in private. Does
anyone know a source for this opinion?

Leah Aharoni

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:45:58 +0000
Subject: Re: Two Sedarim in Turkey

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:55:48 +0200, Ariel Ozick <ari@...> wrote:
> What exactly would be the idea for NOT keeping two days in Antalya, or
> anywhere else, in Turkey?

I think the reasoning is quite simple. Israeli individuals in Chuts
la'arets have to keep the second days of Yom Tov in public so as not to
be give the appearance of 'despising' the custom of the local Jewish
community. If, however, they are in a place outside the techum of the
nearest Jewish community, this does not apply. Whether this extends to a
tsibbur, large group of Israelis, is questionable because they may be
deemed to constitute a newly established Jewish community in that place.

Presumably Rabbi Elyashiv's psak refers to an Israeli group that has
taken over a hotel in Antalya, where there is no indigenous local
community, for the duration of Pesach. Whether they are bound to keep
the second days of Yom Tov then becomes a pertinent question.

Martin Stern


End of Volume 53 Issue 99