Volume 55 Number 41
Produced: Mon Aug 13 5:24:36 EDT 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Judaism and finances (2)
[Nachman Yaakov Ziskind, Robert Rubinoff]
"Orthodox don't contribute"
[Tzvi Stein]
We ain't that good
[Carl Singer]
Yeshiva high school tuition
[Len]
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From: Nachman Yaakov Ziskind <awacs@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:58:03 -0400
Subject: Judaism and finances
> From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
> >From: Tzvi Stein
> >I completely don't get what is meant by "the Orthodox don't contribute"
> >to the public schools. They pay for them but don't use them, and people
> >are complaining?! What is the objection to that?!
>
> The Orthodox don't contribute in subtle and not-so-subtle ways: By
> withholding a cohort of mostly good students from good homes the school
> population is simultaneously reduced and skewed negatively. This is the
> subtle but very real effect. The not-so-subtle way is by voting to
> reject the school budget or to vote down a new bond issue intended to
> upgrade facilities or to build a new school. Yes, they are voting in
> accord with their own interest, which is what is supposed to happen in a
> democracy, but that doesn't help the public school system. Ultimately,
> the reputation of the school system suffers and the desirability of the
> neighborhood declines. Of course, these effects are most acute in the
> suburbs, and are only manifest when the Orthodox population grows into a
> sizeable minority. But once this size is reached, the conflicts can get
> ugly.
Assuming that the public school system is something worthwhile, then,
yes, these could be bad things.
But, given the ineptness of government everywhere in doing anything, why
should we put up with paying twice for education, so some people can
freeload?
You see, it depends upon how you look at things. My personal solution to
this morass is to grant parents a tax credit when they don't use the
public schools - either home schooling, prep schools, or religious
schools - equal to, say, 80% of the average cost of schooling their
child in the public schools. It avoids the church-state issue nicely and
has several other salutory effects, not the least of which is shrinking
the public school system. I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to
happen. :-)
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From: Robert Rubinoff <rubinoff@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:45:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Judaism and finances
> From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
> The Orthodox don't contribute in subtle and not-so-subtle ways: By
> withholding a cohort of mostly good students from good homes the
> school population is simultaneously reduced and skewed
> negatively. This is the subtle but very real effect.
I have heard this kind of reasoning before, and I find it at least
presumptious if not offensive. It's one thing to say that people have
an obligation to support public schools with their taxes, or even with
political involvement in the policies and management of the schools.
It's quite another to say that they are obligated to provide students.
Would you say that childless people are "not contributing" to the
schools? Maybe we should pass a law *requiring* people to have children
so that they can "support" their local schools? This kind of reasoning
implicitly assumes that somehow children "belong" to the community, and
so somehow not sending them to public school is "withholding" them,
rather than not making use of a public service.
If anything, I think people who send their kids to private school are
*helping* the schools by increasing the available resources per pupil.
> The not-so-subtle way is by voting to reject the school budget or to
> vote down a new bond issue intended to upgrade facilities or to build
> a new school. Yes, they are voting in accord with their own interest,
> which is what is supposed to happen in a democracy, but that doesn't
> help the public school system. Ultimately, the reputation of the
> school system suffers and the desirability of the neighborhood
> declines.
This is certainly the case. It's not surprising that people who don't
use the public schools will be (mutatis mutandis) less sympathetic to
the notion that supporting free education for all children is in their
interest (because it ensures that they will live in an educated
community, assuming the schools actually are able to educate the
students - but that's not a topic for *this* list). And while it's true
that this issue comes up with anyone who doesn't have (or anticipate
having) school-age children (which is why school funding can be more
controversial in areas with a high percentage of elderly people), it's
more of an issue when you have a large segment of the community that *as
a group* doesn't use the public schools. And this is an unfortunate
problem, and all I can say is that dealing with it requires strong
leadership in both parts of the community, so that each can see the
other side's point of view. And that is all too often lacking. (Sadly,
sinat chinam ["baseless hatred", i.e. lack of respect for others,
especially others who are perceived as "different" in some way] is still
far too present.)
Robert
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From: Tzvi Stein <Tzvi.Stein@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:25:18 -0400
Subject: "Orthodox don't contribute"
>From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
>>From: Tzvi Stein
>> I completely don't get what is meant by "the Orthodox don't
>> contribute" to the public schools. They pay for them but don't use
>> them, and people are complaining?! What is the objection to that?!
> The Orthodox don't contribute in subtle and not-so-subtle ways: By
> withholding a cohort of mostly good students from good homes the
> school population is simultaneously reduced and skewed negatively.
> This is the subtle but very real effect. The not-so-subtle way is by
> voting to reject the school budget or to vote down a new bond issue
> intended to upgrade facilities or to build a new school.
So you are telling me that these "subtle and not so subtle" effects
outweigh the huge amount of money that the Orthodox are paying in taxes
and not using at all!!! Come on!!
These people are not thinking rationally! Don't they realize the huge
windfall they're getting? Do they ever think about what the impact
would be if all the Orthodox would actually use their schools and the
district had to pay for all those teachers and extra school buildings
that would be needed!
I just can't fathom how they can take all that free money and open their
mouths with any criticism of the Orthdox. Wow!
How about this idea? Take one of these ungrateful communities and get
every Orthodox family to register every one of their children in public
school. Let the conniptions and panic play out in the press as they
realize that they have to double their budget overnight to accommodate
all these extra students. Then the families can all withdraw the
registrations on condition that the Orthodox get a little appreciation
for the support they give, asking nothing in return.
The gall of these people just astounds me.
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:40:58 -0400
Subject: We ain't that good
> The Orthodox don't contribute in subtle and not-so-subtle ways: By
> withholding a cohort of mostly good students from good homes the
> school population is simultaneously reduced and skewed
> negatively. This is the subtle but very real effect.
The above posting, admittedly taken out of context, hit a few nerves.
First while we can all take pride in the little Einstein's (from pre-K
through graduate school) who are Orthodox, to think that our
demographics are significantly different than those of other similar
communities (Jewish or otherwise) is wrong. Take in account factors
such as parents education level, household income, household "learning
culture", etc. -- and the differences flatten out.
More importantly, our communities have their share of children who are
not Einsteins -- whether they're just plain normal kids (100 IQ?) or
special needs children -- and anecdotally there seem to be many, many in
our communities (possibly because parents and educators are more aware.)
Lastly -- gearing our education system's "vision" towards any cohort,
Einstein or Gimpel the fool, is a terrible mistake.
If I may make a related observation (without any data as back-up) -- I
find that children who have visible physical challenges -- say the child
in the wheelchair -- elicit sympathy and support from the community.
Children who outwardly look "normal" but have issues seem to be ignored.
Carl
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From: <LenLinder@...> (Len)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:57:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Yeshiva high school tuition
That's an interesting but ultimately very selfish analyis
Librarians do more than point students to resources. They also
research those resources (books, periodicals, computer-based resources),
identify the ones tha are appropriate for the sschool and acquire
them. A DVD cannot do that, a trained human being does that.
A college counselor works with the individual student (and parents)
giving a lot of direction in evaluating schools (and programs within
schools) and onward through the application process (how many APs to
take?, things to include in the application, how to write the often
critical application essay, in many cases writing one of the
recommendations). And given that we want kids to be in a reasonably
friendly environment Jewishly speaking, it is the college counselor who
should know about the size amd type of Jewish community there is on
campus (and around campus), the availability of kosher food ets. All of
which being the kind of things not available on the college web site,
Princeton Review or U.S. News & World report ratings
Unless the intent is to send all Orthodox kids to Yeshiva University or
a school like Touro (or not to college at all), it would seem to me that
a good college counselor is an indispensible person in any yeshiva high
school.
and the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish" could certanly apply
Len
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End of Volume 55 Issue 41