Volume 55 Number 87
                    Produced: Tue Nov 27 21:43:08 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

47 Cool YouTube Chanukah Videos
         [Jacob Richman]
Avinu Malkenu on Shabbat/Yom Kippur
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Kosher Cooking Carnival
         [Batya Medad]
LinkedIn Frum Network
         [Chaim Shapiro]
No Tachnun at a Bris (5)
         [Martin Stern, <chips@...>, Ira L. Jacobson, Joel Rich,
Perets Mett]
Shaot Zemaniyot,Alot HaShaHar, & Earliest time for Talet & Tefilin (2)
         [William Gewirtz, David E Cohen]
Virtual Glyph Theory (2)
         [Yakir, David Ziants]


From: Jacob Richman <jrichman@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:36:45 +0200
Subject: 47 Cool YouTube Chanukah Videos

Hi Everyone!

I created a list of 47 cool Chanukah Youtube videos.
There is something for everyone. 

The list includes:
  Adam Sandler - The Chanukah Song 
  Kenny Ellis sings Swingin' Dreidel 
  Light Up the World 
  Hanukkah Bird
  My Menorah 
  Hannukah Song Texas Style 
  Voices of Liberty singing O Hannukah 
  The Latke Song
  The Eight Nights of Hanukkah, as told by Jewish celebrities 
  NBA stars Hanukkah greetings 
    and many more.....

The address is:

Happy Chanukah!


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:25:35 EST
Subject: Avinu Malkenu on Shabbat/Yom Kippur

Noach Stern (MJv55#86) discusses the issue of Avinu Malkenu on
Shabbat/Yom Kippur. This issue segues into a related issue. If one
compares the Artscroll machzor for Yom Kippur and that of Birnbaum
machzor for Yom Kippur, one will immediately notice that Artscroll, in a
Yom Kippur that does not fall on Shabbat, has one more Avinu Malkenu
than Birnbaum. Artscoll does have Avinu Malkenu on Mincha while
Birenbaum does not. There is no error here. Minhag Ashkenaz as appears
in Wolf Heidenheim machzor (early 19th century) is specific that there
is no Avinu Malkenu in Mincha of Yom Kippur, and Golschmidt (1970) says
there that some say it if the day is long, that is if there is enough
time.  Adler has no Avinu Malkenu on Mincha either.

It appears to me that some of the same psychological reasons given to
Ne'ilah might have played a role here too. One needs a break before the
last desperate request of Ne'ilah.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:25:18 +0200
Subject: Re: Kosher Cooking Carnival

You don't have to be a jblogger to read the latest edition of the Kosher
Cooking Carnival, 
http://me-ander.blogspot.com/2007/11/is-it-really-thanksgiving.html ! 
It's a monthly internet "magazine," which has links to all sorts of
articles/blogs about kosher food, cooking halachik issues, etc.  If you
see something suitable, please send to <shilohmuse@...>, subject:

http://shilohmusings.blogspot.com/  http://me-ander.blogspot.com/


From: <Dagoobster@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:46:08 EST
Subject: LinkedIn Frum Network

I have started a new LinkedIn Group based on my Yahoo Listserve, The
Frumnetwork http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Frumnetwork/

The idea here is simple.  An online Network of Frum professionals.  I
think we often underestimate the resources of the Frum community.  I can
think of no greater act of Chessed than to use the services of other
Frum professionals.  Lets adopt a Frum First policy.  Keep Frum business
IN the Frum community!  Think of the revenue we can generate and KEEP in
our community by using other Frum professionals for our business needs.
Now, imagine the amount of Tzedaka that increase in revenue can provide.
Please join me in making the Frum Network the premier destination for
keeping Frum money IN the Frum community

Welcome to the Frum Network. Do you own/manage or run a business or
non-profit Organization which caters to the needs of the Jewish

Are you a professional (Lawyer, Doctor, Dentist, therapist, etc) and
would like to let people know about your services?

Do you have a marketable skill ( tutoring, graphic design, gardening,
etc) that would be of interest to the Jewish community?

Have you recently started a business & are looking for talented
employees to help you grow in the right direction?

We are entrepreneurial in nature, and want to encourage business &
economic growth within the Frum Community

The idea is to create the largest network of frum business and services
as possible.

If you would like to join, please sign up here

Chaim Shapiro


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:48:07 +0000
Subject: Re:  No Tachnun at a Bris

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:12:49 -0400, Carl Singer <casinger@...>

> It was my pleasure to be Sandak at my grandson's bris this past Sunday
>  -- reading through the brief instructions in the Artscroll Siddur:
> [tachnun is not said] In the synagogue where a circumcision will take
> place later that day or in the presence of a primary participant (i.e.,
> the father, the mohel or the sandak) in a circumcision that will take
> place later that day.

> I heard / read (? -- don't recall which or where) that "in the old days"
> there was no tachnun in the entire town when there was a bris.

That sounds like a peculiarly chassidic custom since chassidim generally
look for any reason to avoid saying tachanun (see Minhag Yisrael Torah
vol.1 p.221 ff.)

> Also, (on the other hand) as many shules have multiple minyanim in
> multiple rooms how does this apply.  Say, for example, that there's a
> 7:00 AM minyan in the main sanctuary, a 7:30 in the library, and the
> bris will take place at the 8:00 minyan which is in the main sanctuary
> and there's a 8:30 minyan in the library.  Which, if any, of these 4
> minyanim say tachnun?

AFAIK all those in the shul complex prior to the bris omit tachanun but
any later ones in that shul say it, as do those in other buildings.

> Also, what about tachnun at mincha?

If the bris has already taken place, tachanun is said by everyone apart
from the father, the mohel or the sandak who omit it.

Martin Stern

From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:59:25 -0800
Subject: Re:  No Tachnun at a Bris

For a Bris, the whole building where the Bris is to take/takes place
does not say Tachanun that morning.  Since in the old days , in the
small towns, there was probably only one shul, that would be why the
whole town wouldn't say tachunan.

As for Mincha, this seems to depends on what the custom is for that


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:31:30 +0200
Subject: Re: No Tachnun at a Bris

Carl Singer stated in mail-jewish Vol. 55 #86 Digest:

      Which, if any, of these 4 minyanim say tachnun?

All except the ones praying in the room where the brit mila will take
place.  (In your case, the 7:00 and 8:00 minyanim.

Of course, if any of the main players of the brit happen to be praying
in one of the other minyanim, then tahanun would not be said there
either.  Nor in whatever other shul they may be praying before the brit.

      Also, what about tachnun at mincha?

They all say it.

IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:43:56 -0500
Subject: No Tachnun at a Bris

Rabbi Sperber brings this (none in town) down in minhagei yisrael.
Iirc mincha is based on where father and/or sandek are.
Joel Rich

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:43:07 +0000
Subject:  No Tachnun at a Bris

Our shul also has multiple minyonim. If there is a bris then tachanun  
is not said at any minyan (for Shacharis)

[This is implied by Sh. Orukh OC 131:4]

> Also, what about tachnun at mincha?

Tachanun is said at mincha (if it is after the bris). [ibid]

Mishna Brura (SK 25) adds that tachanun is not said at Mincha at the  
location of baby whose bris has taken place that day if the seudo is  
not yet over.

He also adds that the father, mohel & sandak do not say tachanun at
Mincha in any event, as that day is their personal yomtov.

(When I have found myself in that situation, I left the minyan for the
duration of tachanun, as it seems improper to stand around doing nothing
while the tsibur says tachanun.)

Perets Mett


From: <wgewirtz@...> (William Gewirtz)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:50:17 +0000
Subject: Shaot Zemaniyot,Alot HaShaHar, & Earliest time for Talet & Tefilin

> My query is multifaceted.
> We are all aware of Sha'ot Zemaniyot but how do we calculate Alot
> Hashahar based upon Sha'ot Zemaniyot?
> Should we or shouldn't we? Why?
> This brings me to the next major part of this post and that is, How much
> time after Alot Hashahar can one put on Talet & Tefilin with a berakhah.
> How do we calculate the time that the talmoud lists as MiSheyakir ben
> Tekhelet LeLaban?
> Joseph Mosseri

alot does not vary with shaot zemaniot - that commonly held opinion is
asserted by multiple poskim going back almost 400 years.  obviously
controversial.  calculate alot via depression angle of approximately 16%
- see website myzmanim.

bedieved RMF was a bit more lenient on alot in difficult circumstance
and in such case allowed davening at alot with T&T.

mesheyakir is most liberally about an 11.5% depression angle normally
ten to twenty minutes after alot.  again see myzmanim in NY area.  (10.2
appears to be most stringent) depression angles are naturally
latitude/season dependant.  disagreement on mesheyakir is not that
significant - less than 10 minutes or so in ny area..

above is my (informed) opinion.  many poskim, disagree.  reader beware.
using 16 and 11.5 calculated on myzmanim is very supportable.  in a few
years my book IYH.

dr. william gewirtz

From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:49:25 +0200
Subject: RE: Shaot Zemaniyot,Alot HaShaHar, & Earliest time for Talet & Tefilin

Joseph Mosseri asked:
> We are all aware of Sha'ot Zemaniyot but how do we calculate A lot
> Hashahar based upon Sha'ot Zemaniyot?  Should we or shouldn't we? Why?

The common practice in the U.S. seems to be to use a fixed number of
minutes to calculate `alot hashachar and tzeit hakokhavim.

In Israel, probably because of the influence of R' Tukachinsky's luach,
the common practice is to calculate these times based on when the sun is
a certain number of degrees below the horizon.  The assumption behind
this is that what actually defines these times is a certain degree of
darkness, and whatever time value is given by Chazal (the time it takes
to walk 3/4 mil, 4 mil, etc.) is valid for the latitude of Eretz Yisrael
at the equinoxes, and must be adjusted for the latitude and time of

The amount of time between when the sun is at the horizon and when it is
x degrees below the horizon (for any value of x) is represented by a
curve that has two equal troughs at the equinoxes, one peak at the
winter solstice, and a significantly higher peak at the summer solstice.
Thus, the amount of time between `alot hashachar and sunrise is at its
least in March and September and at its greatest (in the Northern
Hemisphere) in June.

Either way, "sha`ot zemaniyot," which are directly proportional to the
length of time between sunrise and sunset, would not seem to be



From: Yakir <yakirhd@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:07:24 +0200
Subject: re: Virtual Glyph Theory


I do not think we need to posit virtual glyphs.

The solution is that we have indications on a number of occasions that
we are dealing with non-relativistic, or rather super-relativistic,
phenomena, (super-C velocities ?) involving suspension of time and
related suspension of particle motion (see Yehoshua) and even time
reversal ("ein m'uchar u'mukdam baTorah").

The glyphs are virtual only in our frame of reference.

-- Yakir
This should really be taken off line. 

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:37:40 +0200
Subject: Re: Virtual Glyph Theory

> letter "hé".  Our sages have taught us (Palestinian Talmud, Tractate
> Sanhedrin, Chapter 9, Halakha 6) that this paired change illustrates the

"Jerusalem Talmud" please...


End of Volume 55 Issue 87