Volume 55 Number 92
Produced: Sat Dec 1 21:10:06 EST 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Preservation of Minhag Ashkenaz
[Alexander Weil]
Requirement of eating at Kiddush (5)
[Martin Stern, Bernard Raab, Akiva Miller, Janice Gelb,
Yehonatan Chipman]
Rewriting history (3)
[Leah, Jonathan Baker, Dr. Ben Katz]
The Sakanah Kiddush
[<FriedmanJ@...>]
Vancouver?
[Michael Frankel]
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From: Alexander Weil <aweil@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:36:00 -0500
Subject: Preservation of Minhag Ashkenaz
K'hal Adas Yeshurun-Jerusalem is an Ashkenaz kehilla dedicated to
preserving and fostering Minhag Ashkenaz in Eretz Yisrael and around the
world. A lively makom Torah and Tefila for its members in Ramot,
Jerusalem, the kehilla is also active on an international level in
promoting Minhag Ashkenaz. Its most notable contribution to the
explosion of media offerings that have appeared in the last decade (
e.g. the Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz and Yerushaseinu sefarim of Machon
Moreshes Ashkenaz in Bnei Brak, the amalgam of minhagim, shuls, seforim
and communal activists that have united under the website
www.ashkenaz.info) is its digital nusach Frankfurt preservation project.
Aimed to update, categorize and make available hundreds of MP3
recordings of standard nusach of weekday and Shabbos tefilla as well as
special kaddishes (Chanukah, Pesach, Shkalim, etc), shir hamaalos before
bentching, Yigdal, etc., KAYJ has partnered with Project
Genesis-TorahMedia to bring the wider Jewish public a treasured piece of
Ashkenazic heritage, recorded by Chazzan Michael Friedman in Ir
HaKodesh, The project has been the catalyst to introduce classic
Ashkenaz tunes into a number of shuls worldwide and have even provided
direction and support to several nascent yekkish minyanim.
The kehilla has other exciting projects including studio recording of
elaborate Western European choir pieces by composers such as Lewandowski
and Japhet. In the M'dor L'Dor series, two cd titles have been released
so far, M'dor l'dor:Mazal Tov--Traditional Ashkenaz wedding songs and
M'dor l'dor:Even Mo'asu--Traditional Ashkenaz Synagogue melodies.
Chazzan Friedman has given a number of English-language radio interviews
in New York about the history of Ashkenaz music and its ancient roots.
The nusach project can be accessed and downloaded for free at
www.kayj.org. For information on how to obtain cd's or to get links to
the radio interviews, please write to <info@...>
Alexander Weil
American Friends of KAYJ
Baltimore, MD
<aweil@...>
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:10:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Requirement of eating at Kiddush
On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:32:21 +0200, Yakir <yakirhd@...> wrote:
> Thus one should be careful not to eat too much cake etc. at a kiddush
> (not a consideration observable at most kiddushim).
>
> This is a / the / possible (choose your own) reason for kugel at a
> kiddush. It is "mezonot" but not baked and thus does not qualify for
> netillat yadayim/birkat hamazon. (That's the theory anyway).
I presume that the reference is to lokshen kugel. AFAIK the way this is
made is that the lokshen are first boiled and then mixed with the other
ingredients and baked. So wouldn't it qualify as baked goods anyway?
Perhaps the point of confusion is that though it is mezonos it is not
pas haba bekisnin according to any definition of the latter.
To avoid the problem one would have to eat cholent containing a
substantial amount of barley which is mezonos but certainly never
requires washing and benshing.
Martin Stern
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From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:30:39 -0500
Subject: RE: Requirement of eating at Kiddush
>From: Yakir
>Thus one should be careful not to eat too much cake etc. at a kiddush
>(not a consideration observable at most kiddushim).
>
>This is a / the / possible (choose your own) reason for kugel at a
>kiddush. It is "mezonot" but not baked and thus does not qualify for
>netillat yadayim/birkat hamazon. (That's the theory anyway).
A kugel is not baked? How else is it cooked? I assume that a potato
kugel does not qualify for netillat yadayim/birkat hamazon because it is
not a wheat product--but what about a noodle kugel? If cake in
sufficient quantity does qualify (news to me) than why not a noodle
kugel in sufficient quantity?
Bernie R.
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:19:45 GMT
Subject: RE: Requirement of eating at Kiddush
Immanuel Burton pointed out that in many shuls, people eat cake to
satisfy the requirement of having a "meal" with Kiddush, and so he
asked, "If this is the case, then one is effectively being 'koveah
seudah' on the mezonos. If so, shouldn't one have to wash one's hands
with 'al netillas yodaim' beforehand?"
The simple answer is that a "seudah" (meal) is defined differently for
different halachos. For Kiddush, one kezayis of mezonos is enough to
make it a "meal". But to transform Mezonos into Hamotzi, a much more
substantial amount is needed.
The best demonstration of this is Mishna Berurah 639:16, where he quotes
the Maamar Mordechai, that "one who eats cake with coffee in the
morning, or similar things such as we do all year long, then even though
he would not say Hamotzi because he is not eating an amount which most
people make a meal of, nevertheless it does require a Sukkah, because he
is making a meal of it."
Clearly, the definition of "meal" in the context of Hamotzi is not the
same as the definition of "meal" in the context of Sukkah. So too, there
is yet another definition of "meal" in the context of Kiddush.
Akiva Miller
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From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:02:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: Requirement of eating at Kiddush
Yakir <yakirhd@...> wrote:
> This is a / the / possible (choose your own) reason for kugel at a
> kiddush. It is "mezonot" but not baked and thus does not qualify for
> netillat yadayim/birkat hamazon. (That's the theory anyway).
I've seen this rationale on this list before but I never really
understood it: I've never made or eaten a kugel that wasn't baked. Does
this status derive from the fact that the component parts of the kugel
like the noodles aren't themselves created by baking? Or is there
something else to this that I'm missing?
-- Janice
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From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:32:40 +0200
Subject: RE: Requirement of eating at Kiddush
In 55 #90, Yakir wrote:
> This [i.e., to avoid questions of washing, etc.) is a / the / possible
> (choose your own) reason for kugel at a kiddush. It is "mezonot" but
> not baked and thus does not qualify for netillat yadayim/birkat
> hamazon. (That's the theory anyway).
In what sense is kugel not "baked"? As far as I know, "baking" means
preparing food by placing it for long periods of time inside an oven at
a high temperature (but not as high, or as direct, as grilling directly
under a heat source; and with meats etc. the word for the same process
is "roasting").
Perhaps you mean that potato kugel does not contain flour made from
wheat et al as the main ingredient -- but that certainly doesn't apply
to lukshen kugel, which is the predominant one in Israel, nor to bread
kugel.
Yehonatan
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From: Leah <leah25@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:03:01 +0200
Subject: Re: Rewriting history
SBA wrote:
> Have those who claim that the original Zionists were compatible to our
> religion read Herzl's diaries? Where he discusses mass conversion of
> Jews to Catholicism?
This is a standard anti-Zionist argument, which just doesn't hold water.
Herzl spent years looking for a solution to "the Jewish problem". The
idea of mass conversion was a fairly early one and predated the vision
of the Jewish state by years.
Leah
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From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:44:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rewriting history
From: SBA <sba@...>
> Perets Mett < >
>> Shmuel Himelstein wrote:
>>> I suggest that he reread the history of the Zionist movement again.
>>> From its very earliest days it had a religious component and religious
>>> members. Granted, there were many Zionists that were not religious,
> >Not many but **most**, and they outvoted the religious members.
> Have those who claim that the original Zionists were compatible to our
> religion read Herzl's diaries? Where he discusses mass conversion of
> Jews to Catholicism?
Herzl repented of that idea, for Heine's reasoning - you convert
to Christianity, the racialist antisemites will still regard you as
a Jew;
Also, the Chovevei Tzion were a religious Zionist movement that long
predated Herzl. When Nathan Birnbaum invented the term, about 1890,
it did not denote political Zionism, rather Palestine settlement, as
the Chovevei Tzion intended.
Therefore, yes, from the earliest days, there was a religious component
to Zionism. It was only later that secular Zionism arose, and that
*after* Herzl had given up on his mass-conversion idea to solve "the
Jewish problem".
name: jon baker web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
address: <jjbaker@...> blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com
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From: Dr. Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:44:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Rewriting history
>From: SBA <sba@...>
>Have those who claim that the original Zionists were compatible to our
>religion read Herzl's diaries? Where he discusses mass conversion of
>Jews to Catholicism?
That was before he came up with the idea of Zionism as a solution to the
Jewish problem
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From: <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:28:16 EST
Subject: The Sakanah Kiddush
Who is the cook is who said kugels aren't baked? I guess you can fry
them in solid grease on the stove top--but where I come from kugels are
baked. Besides, there is something much more serious to consider: It's
what I call the kiddush danger to life (and limb)--the notorious sakanah
kiddush.
Actually, the menus as stated in all these posts do provide life-taking
risks. Let them eat cake! Perhaps our chefs/hostesses should
concentrate less on the sugar-loaded cakes, the addictive wine that
causes alcoholism, the carbs that add dangerous calories, not to mention
all that lovely heart-breaking cholesterol in the chopped liver and
kugel. (Even Canola oil offers health issues).
Before we even get to eating the food, let's consider what happens when
the mob comes out of services, in some cases shoving at each other on
staircases, elbowing folks out of the way to get to what they crave!!!!!
Oh what joy! A real simcha can be judged by how much pushing it takes to
get to the choice morsels--and how nasty folks are to each other at the
"buffet."
The food served on Shabbos morning may have been stuffed into a tiny
fridge since Thursday night even, or sat out for hours, so temperatures
are never quite right. And then there's the stuff that has been
simmering on the blech all night and all morning, and those
temperatures--not to mention the fellas who sneaked down on Friday night
to "taste." -- With dirty spoons. So things aren't exaclty---well, you
can figure that one out by late Shabbos afternoon -- when you get a
chance to make the brocha Asher Yotzar and reach for your favorite form
of relief--Pepto Bismol, Prevacid, Alka Seltzer--or call the doctor
about some food poisoning.)
So if we let them eat cake (diabetics beware) I am just curious with all
these details of exactly how you can determine exactly how much cake a
person should eat at a kiddush if they don't wash and won't bentch. Will
you provide a special scale top kosher bakeries that will automatically
decide if it takes one or two ruggelach? Is the measurement dependent
upon pre-baking or post-baking measures? What if when the cake was cut
it weighed in at a certain weight and humidity in the atmosphere caused
it to gain? Does the person slicing the cake need to put up a sign?
And then what do you do when the inhalers show up and inhale all the
cake before the crowd gets there? Do they get special dispensation?
Instead of worrying about the size of a kezayit or beitzah, wouldn't it
make more sense to simply celebrate with a blessing on the congregation,
with the commission of a meaningful act of chessed and tzedakah that
conveys human kindness and decency and poses zero health issues?
Just wondering. Jeanette
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From: Michael Frankel <michaeljfrankel@...>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:31:52 -0500
Subject: Vancouver?
Sheila and I are will be in Vancouver next week. She's invited to the
IETF conference there (anyone else on this list going?) while I shall
join along as "spouse of". Since we'll be there over shabbos Chanukoh,
I'm wondering whether anyone has information about local shabbos
options; shuls, hospitality, etc.
Mechy Frankel
<michael.frankel@...>
<michaeljfrankel@...>
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End of Volume 55 Issue 92
