Volume 55 Number 96
                    Produced: Wed Dec  5  5:15:12 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chatan not going to Shul
         [k and a weiss]
Cos B'racha
         [Gershon Dubin]
Kugel Preparation
         [Gershon Dubin]
Preservation of Minhag Ashkenaz (2)
         [Martin Stern, <chips@...>]
         [Perets Mett]
Status of Non Jewesses having affairs with Jews (2)
         [Frank Silbermann, Bernard Raab]
Zemanim 'changing'
Zmanim Again
         [Dr. William Gewirtz]


From: k and a weiss <aliw@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:58:56 +0200
Subject: Re: Chatan not going to Shul

>> AFAIK it is specifically the presence of one of these three
>> individuals that exempts the congregation from saying tachanun. In
>> some communities they endeavour to daven in different shuls in order
>> to 'spread' the simchah to as many people as possible. This is quite
>> distinct from the custom in certain groups of looking for any excuse
>> to avoid tachanun.
>> Martin Stern
>How does this compare to the chatan who is advised to skip tfila
>btzibbur in order to not keep the minyan from saying tachanun?
>Joel Rich

R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zatza"l explained that the Mishna Brura (O"H
131/20) ruling of the chatan not going to shul during the shiva y'mei
mishteh (as opposed to the three brit-associated people) was because
there are those who say that a chatan is patur from tefilla all seven
days. He added that it wasn't an issue of skipping or not skipping
tachanun, since the tzibbur is encouraged to daven in a beit avel, even
though they thereby avoid saying tachanun, even if the avel already has
a minyan.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:24:20 GMT
Subject: Cos B'racha

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>

> The basic halacha seems to be pretty clear that whenever three people
> eat together they are mezamen, and part of that is that they make the
> birchat hamazon with a Cos.

We pasken that birchas hamazon einah te'unah cos.  This is halacha, not
sociological based on the availability of wine.  Therefore, one cannot
drink the cos when there are factors such as havdala that prevent it.

> Once this becomes common, then once again the Cos will be drunk even
> on Seudah Shelishit that ends after sunset / tzais.

Not true, as above.



From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 14:31:57 GMT
Subject: Kugel Preparation

From: <leah@...> (Leah S. R. Gordon)

> Regarding kugel being "mezonot" or not, one cannot assume that the
> noodles are boiled prior to being baked

We are confusing the requirements for mezonos with those of washing and
bentching.  The former depends on the composition of the 5 types of
grain and includes such things as cooked barley, noodles, whether in
kugel or otherwise, many breakfast cereals, etc.

The requirements for washing and bentching when eating items in
sufficient quantity requires, in addition, categorization as pas haba'ah
bekisnin.  There are 3 varieties thereof, basically the families of
cake, pie and pretzels; see shulchan aruch for details.

Since these are PAS haba'ah bekisnin, they have the stringency of pas
and require netilas yadayim/hamotzi/birchas hamazon when eaten in
quantities normally associated with pas.

One can eat all 100 portions of the above-mentioned noodle kugel and
make an al hamichya, since, while it IS mezonos, it is NOT pas haba'ah



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:37:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Preservation of Minhag Ashkenaz

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:04:32 -0800 (PST), Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz
<sabba.hillel@...> wrote:
> This *should* be a matter for the Rav to handle.
> Any shul should follow the psak of its Rav, no matter what
> "cabal" might try to take over.  Any Rav should be strong enough to
> maintain the proper behavior in the shul and keep the members from
> causing a chilul Hashem.

Perhaps I omitted to mention that this cabal managed to get a new rabbi
appointed to further their plans without making clear to the membership
in advance what these were and what the rabbi intended to do to
implement them.  This rabbi has acted hand in glove with them and is
therefore one of the defendants in the current Din Torah.

Martin Stern

From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:51:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Re: Preservation of Minhag Ashkenaz

> From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
> This *should* be a matter for the Rav to handle.  In Baltimore, the Glen
> Avenue Shul (which had been led by Rav Schwab) continued as an Ashkenazi
> shul under Rabbi Feldman.  While Rabbi Feldman was himself a Chasid, he
> made sure that the shul continued with all the minhagim that were
> appropriate.  Any shul should follow the psak of its Rav, no matter what
> "cabal" might try to take over.  Any Rav should be strong enough to
> maintain the proper behavior in the shul and keep the members from
> causing a chilul Hashem.

Yepp, for a time there the Yekke Shul had a Lubavitch Rabbi, Hungarian
Chazan and Polisher Gabbai.

The Shul officially changed its charter many years ago is no longer Yekke.


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 13:38:15 +0000
Subject: Sedros

Simcha wrote:
>  (iii) in certain leap years he [Avudraham] says that in some places
> mishpatim is split, and in others ki tisa.

If you look in the Seifer haChinukh you will see that it considers
Mishpotim and Im Kesef Talve to be two distinct sedros.

Perets Mett


From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:59:10 -0600
Subject:  Status of Non Jewesses having affairs with Jews

Russell Jay Hendel <rjhendel@...>

> The main distinguishing feature between Moabite and say American women
> is that the Moabite government actively pursued this with the
> expectation that God would punish the Jews. Such an intent and
> perception is absent from the American government.

That pretty difference pretty much destroys the usefulness of the
Moabite episode as a basis for halacha.  Indeed, compared to other
episodes in the Bible involving Jewish men and gentile women, the
Moabite situation seems to have been an unusual special case.

> Nevertheless, there are serious positions taken by secular modern
> authors on the American scene that assimilation is costing more Jews
> to America than physical anti-semitism in many European countries. It
> is not clear how the Rambam would rule on such a situation where the
> people think it OK but the government is not advocating it. But the
> consequences are devastating to the Jewish people.

I am not a rabby, but my speculation is that the Rambam would disapprove
of intermarriage.  He might even forbid it.

> Here is an analogy: I know a certain friend gets freightened by cats.
> Wouldnt it be ethically wrong for me to bring cats to him. Can I argue
> "His fears are his problem." Would it matter if I am Jewish or
> non-Jewish? Can I argue "It is not one of the 7 noachide laws."

It's an analogy, but not an analogy to today's situation in which
nonreligious Jewish men _aren't_ afraid of gentile women.  (Or are you
suggesting that gentile women are persistently trying to seduce Orthodox
men, ignoring their pleas to be left alone?  Or are you claiming a right
to speak to gentile women on behalf of all the nonreligious Jewish men
who do not share our opinion?)

> The point of the analogy is that American non-Jewish women are aware
> of the impact of what they do on the Jewish people. My analogy above
> argues for "responsibility" but not for a death penalty.

Do gentiles have a halachic obligation to promote Yiddishkeit?  I've
long heard that Judaism is distinguished from Christianity and Islam in
that we do not believe G-d requires everyone in the world to join our
religion.  Your approach suggests that we do require gentiles to believe
in Judaism -- just not necessarily to become part of the nation of

> However one point that can be inferred from the above is that in any
> perspective the non-jewess cannot be perceived as "an innocent
> bystander." There are ethical obligations to be aware of consequences
> of actions.  In light of the fact that many modern authors have
> decried the rapid assimilation rate perhaps it would be worthwhile to
> discuss the legal aspects of non-jewish obligations towards jews (not
> to mention our own obligations towards ourselves).

A century ago, when a black man had consensual sex with a white woman in
the south it was considered rape -- on the grounds, I suppose, that any
woman who was willing to so degrade herself was clearly insane, and
therefore incapable of giving informed consent.  The assignment of blame
to willing gentile women is reminiscent of that; the only difference
being the relative value of preserving the Jewish people as compared
with the preserving "the white race."  I see a difference, and you see a
difference, but I don't see how we can expect people who don't believe
in Judaism to see a difference.

Frank Silbermann               Memphis, Tennesee

From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:04:08 -0500
Subject: RE: Status of Non Jewesses having affairs with Jews

>From: Russell Jay Hendel :
>The point of the analogy is that American non Jewish women are aware of
>the impact of what they do on the Jewish people.

A good example of self-referential reasoning. In the vast majority of
cases, the non-Jewish woman has no interest in or awareness of her
impact on the "Jewish people". She simply is responding to an apparent
interest of another who happens to be Jewish, a circumstance neither she
nor he regards with much importance or concern.

Bernie R.


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:45:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zemanim 'changing'

> From: Rabbi Alexander Seinfeld <seinfeld@...>
> The Kitsur Shulchan Aruch admonishes one to wait in the summer "until
> all light is gone from the sky". This is more stringent than most people
> practice today.
> But I have indeed noticed that in North America, from San Francisco and
> northward (all the moreso in Seattle, where I visit each summer) there
> can be light in the NW sky up to 100 minutes or more after shkiah
> (sunset).
> I have never observed such a phenomenon in the winter.

Seemed to me that in the PacificNW, it gets darker quicker in the winter
than it does in the Baltimore-NewYork corridor.


From: <wgewirtz@...> (Dr. William Gewirtz)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:53:14 +0000
Subject: Zmanim Again

Relative to Mechy Frankel's long post:

On 2. Alot does not vary with the halakhic definition of shaot zemniot
using any of the shittos u quoted.  i clearly did not say fixed, just a
more complex variation (depression angles not correlated to the length
of daylight period.)  the minchat kohen implies (strongly but that can
be argued) a most common method used to calculate, vehachush maichish.

On 3. all agreed. interestingly RDTH ztl is identical to some scientific
definitions.  i have not seen his shittah (inside or)squared with the
gemara in pesachim, though i suspect how it might be.  textual variants
in the gemara might line up with various shittos, but well beyond a blog

On 5. symmetry is derived from the gemara in pesachim, and is basis of
RYMT ztl change in calculation u mention(opposed by RCYS ztl at the
time).  a very difficult topic, see minchat yitzchak 2-53 (from memory
on chapter).  i generally assume minor quantities are not necessarily
considered in psak so = means for all practical purposes; remember they
did not have atomic clockssrc.  note that other such minor discrepencies
around equal are sometimes disregarded.  the big fat glaring asymmetry
you refer to to must always be dealt with; it is a major issue with
numerous ramifications.  RYBS ztl famous yartzeit shiur provides one
very conceptual solution.

On 6 - chas veshalom for some calendars.  many that Benish has in his
sefer u referenced, were printed in cities where the rav and vaad
pobably had some control.  myzmanim that i referenced has a haskomah
from RYB.


End of Volume 55 Issue 96