Volume 56 Number 08
                    Produced: Sun Dec 23 21:24:40 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Convert as synagogue president (2)
         [Leonard Paul, <chips@...>]
Frum First Network (5)
         [Joshua Goldmeier, Chaim Shapiro, Ira Bauman, Richard Schultz,
Ed Greenberg]
Symmetry and asymmetry between the periods AH-Honetz and Sh'qioh-T
         [David Riceman]
         [Alex Herrera]
Z'manim again


From: Leonard Paul <lenpaul@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:57:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Convert as synagogue president

Please enlighten me. There is something that I really fail to
understand.  If an individual has spent a great deal of time, effort,
and study to go through a lengthy process of conversion and is now
committed to living a Torah observant life and is also accepted as
Jewish as part of an Orthodox shul, on what basis can such an individual
still not be considered "fully Jewish" in all respects so as not to be
accepted as "my brother" to serve as president of that or any other
Orthodox shul?

Are there any other restrictions or limitations where such an individual
would also be excluded from full participation as a Jew in Jewish
community life?

Leonard Paul

From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:58:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Convert as synagogue president

Once again, the Political Correct thought stream is trying to take over.

I am getting more convinced that the present 'becoming frum' movement is
just a fad that is a continuation of the flocking of Jews to 'Eastern
Religions' from the previous generation.

Jewish Frum Halacha is NOT based on "what feels good to me". That you
don't like something on gut level that a Posek has decided means nothing
unless you are a Posek yourself or can convince a Posek to challenge and
can back up your claim with the Halachic Process.

As for the claim that one is not allowed to remind a convert that they
are a convert so no Halacha can discriminate on a convert - excuse me,
but which religion are you talking about? Without even thinking, there
is the Halacha that a male Kohein is not to marry a convert and if he
does the children are not qualified to be called Kohein.


From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:34:59 -0600
Subject: Frum First Network

After lurking for a while, I feel the need to add my own 2 cents,
probably just a shava prutah at best anyway....:).

1.  I know Chaim Shapiro, and from this I know that he has only the best
intentions involved in helping out other frum jews, not to ostracize

2.  I went to my Rov, R' Zev Cohen, (permission was asked to use his
name), and he said that there is a rashi in parshas Behar that makes the
frum first issue a safek mitzvas aseh.  (I forget the exact quote as I
am at work now).  So before all the comparisons to Nazis and social
divides, we are dealing with halacha here as well.

3.  The Catholics and every other organized group have their version of
this as well.  Our maid of honor and her hubby are devout Catholics
(don't ask, whole other discussion), and they say in their Catholic
system, the exact same idea is in place.

4.  Fromn a practical standpoint, If a frum yid is trying to earn a
living, isn't it better to purchase some merchandise from him rather
than end up giving him tzedaka?

5.  My yekke grandfather taught us from the minute we could spend a
dime, unless there is a huge price difference (his # was more than 10%),
you shop at a yid first.  I have tried to maintain this and have been
teaching this to my children as well.  I have non-Jewish customers so
that I may have to spread my $ with too, but I try to give Jews as much
of my business as I can.  If I have to use a non-Jew, then that's life
too, but I make the effort.

Why is it us Jews are the only ones unwilling to support our own in
business (as a whole, there are many fine individuals who do)?  We have
an obligation to support each other, either in business or tzedakah, and
I prefer to help a guy in business.  Don't assume anymore that someone
has a great succesful business unless you do their books.

Chaim, kol hakavod and keep up the effort, I joined and I hope others do
as well.

Joshua Goldmeier
Sappanos paint Co. - Paintplus.com
Chicago, Il.

From: <ChaimShapiro@...> (Chaim Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:55:35 EST
Subject: Frum First Network

I would like to note that I will NOT engage or justify Ad Hominem
attacks and Nazis comparisons with a response.  I write this note only
because this list is well read, and I want to ensure that my lack of
response is NOT perceived as tacit agreement.

Chaim Shapiro. 

From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:41:17 EST
Subject: Re: Frum First Network

Regarding the frum network : The suggestion was made that the network
was not made to take money out of the hands of others.  However, here in
Teaneck, there are real choices to be made.

A non-Jewish liquor store owner made a substantial investment in the
frum community.  Much of his store is devoted to kosher products.  He is
very knowledgeable about those products, provides personal service for
over 20 years and has worked closely with the shuls here in fundraisers.
A frum person recently opened a liquor store with only kosher products.

The Chinese clothes cleaners in the area have stayed open on Sundays for
the frum community, have provided personal service and got to know their
clients.  Again, a frum cleaner opened for business.

I cannot increase my liquor and cleaning needs to accomodate both the
non-Jewish and frum entrepreneurs.  If I switch businesses I take away
business from one place and give it to the other.  Two questions come to

Is it fair and wise to tell non-Jews who invest in their business to
serve our community that their efforts can only bear fruit if no Jewish
competitor will ever arise?

I am no economist but, in the long run, if Christians use Christian
services, Moslems use Moslem services, and all other groups use only
their own, leaving frum Jews to be dependent only on other frum Jews,
will be ultimately benefit or suffer?

Ira Bauman

From: Richard Schultz <schultr@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:13:15 +0200
Subject: Frum First Network

In mail-jewish 56:05, Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Richard Schultz wrote:

>> Just to make sure that I understand what it is that you are proposing,
>> am I correct in my assumption that you would agree that there was
>> nothing wrong in principle with the Nazis' April 1933 boycott of
>> Jewish-owned businesses?

> Richard, I do not understand how you go from a social interaction type
> organization that creates an environment where one can initially
> choose from one's own social group for business purposes to a boycott
> situation where the clear focus is to exlude from the marketplace a
> different social / ethnic / religious group. I do not think this
> comparison is valid and does not add to the discussion.

The OP said that he wants to set up a marketplace in which Orthodox Jews
buy from Orthodox Jews, to the exclusion (insofar as it is possible) of
non-Orthodox Jews.  The difference between that and a boycott of
non-Orthodox Jews strikes me as a semantic one, not a real on.  The OP
further went on to state that he did not object to the idea of Reform
Jews preferentially buying from other Reform Jews.  So I ask the
question: what is the basic principle here?  If it's okay for Orthodox
Jews to state that they will not buy from Reform Jews if an Orthodox
alternative is available, then should it not be okay for Aryans to state
that they will not buy from Jews if an Aryan alternative is available?

					Richard Schultz

From: Ed Greenberg <edg@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:00:30 -0800
Subject: Frum First Network

So I have a question... How do you decide who is frum enough?

I clicked through the link in which "members of the list" were invited
to join the network, but I did not join. Why? I'm not frum. I'm Jewish,
last time I looked. I enjoy the list.  I learn a lot from it. But I'm
certainly a whole bunch of mitzvos short of 613.

So I guess I'll just hang out with the rest of Klal Yisroel and do
business the old fashioned way.



From: David Riceman <driceman@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:50:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Symmetry and asymmetry between the periods AH-Honetz and Sh'qioh-T

> From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>

> But beyond that, I often wonder how the Netz Minyan functioned in prior
> centuries and millenia, before the availability of accurate clocks and
> calculations. Back then, even their best estimates could easily have
> been a few minutes off.
> All the above makes me suspect that absolute precision is not only
> impossible, but not even worth trying too hard for, and that a
> reasonable approximation is good enough.

See Tosafoth Berachoth 9b s.v. "LK"Sh kevathikin", that our excuse for
not praying at hanetz hahama is precisely our inability to be precise.
In other words, the [ha]netz minyan is a product of modern technology.

David Riceman


From: Alex Herrera <odat@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:13:39 -0600
Subject: RE: Tahanun

Shalom Carmy responds to my observation that folks who are emotionally
invested in the joy of prayer will often look for excuses to avoid
Tachanun because the prayers are striking depressing...

> I'm a bit confused here. The argument seems to be that tahanun is
> depressing and therefore a person for whom prayer is an emotional
> experience will avoid it.

No. It was not an argument. Folks who seek joy in prayer will notice
that Tachanun does not further that goal. It's emotionally
depressing. That is an observation.

We are not allowed to change the prayer service willy-nilly but there
are accepted reasons for dropping Tachanun (and turning the half-Kaddish
into a full Kaddish if you are praying with a minyan as I recall). I'm
not sure what is wrong with doing that.

I can use a traffic analogy as an argument: if I do not like stopping at
stop signs, I can use a street that has none. It is a matter of
preference, but how far out of the way should I go to avoid stop signs?
If I find stop signs frustrating I might make a greater effort to avoid
them than others would. But if someone were to imply that I was scorning
the traffic laws by avoiding stop signs (since stop signs are in the
book of traffic laws), then I would ignore such complaints. Or if
someone suggested that I should seek out stop signs so as to experience
the whole range of traffic laws, I would ask, "Why, if more than one
path is legally available?" If I have no choice, then certainly I will
take the road with stop signs and obey each one, but don't ask me to
linger at each stop sign to savor the lack of motion. I'll come to a
full and complete stop and then move on as proper, trying to get through
them as quickly as possible.

> If one doesn't take emotion seriously--if gratitude, praise, the sense
> of need, the sense of sin and so on, are not real to us, then what
> exactly is prayer beyond the rote performance?

I suppose that is why Tachanun is in the prayer service. We cover a wide
range of emotions in the service. Tachanun is the depressing part. I run
through the depressing part (not paying too much attention), since I
have enough things to be depressed about in my life. I am trapped in my
home. I am powerless in many ways. My very life cries out to me how very
helpless I am. I am willing to spend time during prayer pointing out to
G-d how very depressing and worthless my life is... a very short
time... and then I will move on to happier thoughts. I must. It is a
survival reaction of those who need no further reminders of how tenuous
their lives are on this Earth.

There are daily reminders of G-d's miracles, evening, morning and
noon. I choose to focus on those daily miracles more than the other.

I hope that wasn't too depressing for folks reading this. My apologies
if it was. I accept G-d's judgment. I have no idea if my condition is a
judgment of punishment but if it is, I accept it. In any case, what
choice do I have?

I will rush through Tachanun (not paying too much attention) and avoid
it when I can do so legally (which is rare). I will linger on the joyful
parts of prayer. G-d will be the final judge.

I see potential for misunderstanding here, so read my words carefully. I
used them carefully.

Alex Herrera


From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:47:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Z'manim again

I don't have one in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that the Navy base
the times on sea-level. Is there a halachic basis for doing so? For
cities like Denver, this would be at least a few minutes of difference.



End of Volume 56 Issue 8