Volume 56 Number 11
                    Produced: Mon Dec 24 16:47:18 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Frum First (2)
         [Joshua Goldmeier, Joshua Goldmeier]
Kosher Restaurants Open on Shabbos
Second Ave. Deli (2)
         [Orrin Tilevitz, Sarah Beck]
         [k and a weiss]
Symmetry and asymmetry between the periods AH-Honetz and
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Tithing Produce from Israel
         [Mark Steiner]
Truma/Masar & the borders of israel (2)
         [Dr. Josh Backon, Akiva Miller]


From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:17:45 -0600
Subject: Frum First

1.  wow, here we have a simple issue of supporting the local community
first -meaning, giving them first "dibs" on your business, and everyone
jumps up, basically saying, don't tell me how to spend my dollars.  yet,
we are so quick to tell everyone the newset chumra/halacha that we
should all be doing.  Oy lanu

2.  Talking to my rov further, obviously if one has bad service, one may
shop elsewhere, as well as bad price, inconvenient, and a myriad of
other details.  The idea here is an attitude.  Not to nitpick over
whether or not shmuly is a mentch.  If he isn't, go somewhere else, but
at least you gave him the opportunity to try!!!!!

3.  To those of you so adamant in attacking this program for some legit
and some not so legit reasons, shop where you want.  just remember that
gas costs money and so does advice.  when you drive an extra 10 minutes
to go somewhere else not frum to save a small amount, or you ask advice
in shule on a topic but do not go to that persons store for the item,
you're the one with halachic issues here and you're the one who
maintains the pasuk "ki lo yechdal evyon mikerev ha'aretz".  I never
understood what God was saying, why can't God eliminate the evyon
problem?  now I do.  god was saying that with bechirah and hester panim,
You people simply aren't supportive enough of each other when it comes
to dinai mamon.  Everyone has a million reasons why not to shop at a
frum store, The idea here is "did you give a frum guy a chance", that's
all.  just give him/her a chance.  If there's a reason why not, so don't
go back.

I've had my share of bads experiences as well, and I don't visit those
places.  but being in retail, (yes, this is a personal issue with me) I
can vouch for how insulting and depressing it is that the general
response in the frum community by people who have never given me a
chance, is "eh, whatever.  i shop where I want and no one tells me where
to spend my money".  I even had a frum guy tell me that b'shita he
doesn't shop by frum people.  I asked him if b'shita he doesn't put on
t'fillin either b/c both are being mevatel mitzvos asai's!

shop where you want, but Nazis we aren't!

Joshua Goldmeier
Sappanos paint Co. - Paintplus.com
Chicago, Il.

From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:23:54 -0600
Subject: Frum First

specifically to Meir Shinnar:

I can only vouch for myself, but none of your ethical points regarding
non-Jews enter into my mind.  I had a Catholic maid of honor at my
wedding, even though I have a very black hat/chareidi yeshivah
background and am still frum.  I deal with non-Jews every day of the
week, and find them as honest and as dishonest as the community of Jews.
Dispariging non-Jews or anyone else for that matter by my children, who
are repeating it from the rebbeim, is NOT tolerated.  Yet I fully
support a frum first idea, and would not associate with any business who
acted irresponsibly by saying non-Jews are less.

Joshua Goldmeier
Sappanos paint Co. - Paintplus.com
Chicago, Il.


From: <crclbas@...> (Ben)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:05:59 -0500
Subject: Kosher Restaurants Open on Shabbos

I remember when I was going to YU in the 50's, two major restaurants
were open on Shabbos and was used by many frum individuals. These two
dairy restaurants were Farm Food on 49th Stree in Manhatten and Ratners
on the Lower East Side. Eventually, Ratners closed on Shabbos and, I
believe , the Kof -K gave them Hashgocho. I do not remember who the
supervising Rabbi was at Farm Food. But alas, they are both out of
business. BTW, Dairy restaurants , now require a Mashgiach and must be
closed on Shabbos if it wants the frum community as customers.  



From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:22:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Second Ave. Deli

A recent article in the Jewish Week mentions the name of the rav
hamachshir. He provides a hechsher for many restaurants, all or nearly
all of which are owned by Jews and open on shabbat.  There have been
Jewish-owned restaurants in NYC under supervision that were supposedly
sold each Friday to a non-Jewish employee (Greener Pastures, which has
been closed for many years, is an example that comes to mind, and
well-known Manhattan rabbis ate there), but I am not aware that these
restaurants follow this example.  Within the limits of what Avi will
post, it is sufficient to say that it is not productive to derive
halacha from this hechsher, vehameivin yavin.

From: Sarah Beck <beckse@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:05:07 -0500
Subject: Second Ave. Deli

I know nothing about the hashgacha of the 2nd Ave. Deli past or present,
but here's a classic example of what (New York?) Orthodoxy has come
to. A nice frum girlfriend of mine, an alumna of all the right schools,
had a birthday, and her secular grad school classmates wanted to take
her out to celebrate. She invited me along. She didn't know them very
well, so she was embarassed to tell them explicitly where to go. As we
stood on the street, it came down to the 2nd Ave. Deli vs. a non-kosher
Italian restaurant across the street. (Yes, there are many other
options, but no, they weren't happening in that particular situation.)

"What about the hechsher of the 2nd Ave. Deli?" she whispered.

"I have no idea," I said, "but [your posek] wouldn't eat there, that's
for sure. Let's go to the Italian restaurant, drink some coffee, see
what happens."

"Why can't we go to the 2nd Ave. Deli? I'll get a sandwich or

"Because it's a MEAT restaurant with a hechsher that we don't know." I
said, "It could be fine. Or the meat could Actually. Be. Treif."

The problem here isn't ma'arit ayin, as there are legitimate problems of
m.a . in going to either place. The problem is that, in her eyes, a
roast beef sandwich at a restaurant with an unknown hashgacha was OK
bedieved, while a cup of coffee at a non-kosher restaurant was just not
something that Nice Frum Girls do. (I am not even speaking of, rachmana
litzlan, a salad, since everyone knows that shratzim run into problems
at Reputable Kashrut Agencies.)

As for the actual situation on 2nd Ave., one may even go so far as to
speak to the present mashgiach himself, even if that's not as fun as
impugning his standards on the web:

Vaad Harabonim Lemeshmeret Hakashrut
6 East 45th Street, Suite 209
New York, NY 10017
Tel/Fax: (718) 232-4275
David Wynn, Esq., President
Rabbi Israel Steinberg, Rabbinical Director



From: k and a weiss <aliw@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 20:26:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Sunrise

> From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
> The word is hanetz, the heh not being the definite article but
> indicating a hiphil formation from the root natsats.

yup, but it's henetz, not hanetz.


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:58:54 +0200
Subject: Re:  Symmetry and asymmetry between the periods AH-Honetz and

Akiva Miller noted in mail-jewish Vol. 56 #06:

      Actually, I was recently in a shul ("Shomrei Shabbos" of Boro
      Park) which has a daily "netz" minyan,

I understand the quotation marks to indicate that Akiva is aware that
the "he" in "hanetz" is not the definite article.  And that "netz" is a
bird of prey.

      I would comment that "lo nitna Torah l'malachei hashareis -
      the Torah was given to humans, not to angels". Hashem expects
      no more than that we make our best efforts, and I suspect
      that these calculations and clocks do meet that standard.

This brings to mind the saying: "Measure with a micrometer, mark with
chalk, cut with an ax." 8-)

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:38:10 +0200
Subject: Tithing Produce from Israel

A note on my previous posting about tithing produce from Israel.  If a
product from Israel has the OU hechsher on it, I assume that the OU took
care of tithing (they have an Israeli liaison to make sure that Israeli
products exported to the U.S. conform to the standards of the OU).  I
was referring to loose produce.  I was a little disturbed to find that
there are kosher supermarkets in "frum" neighborhoods where the local
rabbinate does not allow Israeli produce, because of the tithing
problem.  That's like saying that the store does not allow chickens
because of the "shechita problem."  It is not hard for a rabbi in the
U. S. to learn the laws of tithing (most of them have studied in
yeshivot in Eretz Yisrael), so why not tithe the produce and give Israel
a break?

A further note: since this is the sabbatical year (shmita), I remark
that it is forbidden to export produce from Eretz Yisrael during the
sabbatical year.  Those who rely on the "heter mechira" (the sale of the
Land to an Arab as a legal fiction) will treat the produce as though it
did not have the sanctity of the sabbatical year (kedushat shvi`it) and
allow its exportation.  (The heter mechira is based on the so called
"Jerusalem custom" of treating Gentile produce as shmita-free.  Of
course not everyone who holds this minhag also allows the heter
mechira.)  However, please note that on the assumption that the produce
has no sanctity, the produce then requires tithing!  (Sanctified produce
does NOT require tithing.)  Hence those who rely on the heter mechira
and buy Israeli produce abroad this year must tithe the produce.  (Of
course this requires a decision of which tithes to separate, because
they change from year to year in the seven year agricultural cycle.)


From: Dr. Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:08:02 +0200
Subject: Truma/Masar & the borders of israel

>And Rav Moshe (Iggeros Moshe Yoreh Deah chelek 3 siman 127) after
>bringing the mishna in chala, the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam on
>peros in chutz l'aretz concludes "l'dina harei kol ha'achronim sovrim
>k'chiddush ha Mishna L'Melech she'byezei l'chutz l'aretz achar m'revach
>v'chen kol pri acher shenitchayav b'trumos u'masros chayavin b'chutz
>l'aretz v'cha issur tevel" [the law is that all the achronim hold like
>the chiddush of the Mishna L'melech that if they go out to chutz
>l'aretz after the status of revach and so for all other fruit that
>enter into trumos and ma'asros they are obligated in chutz l'aretz and
>have the issur of tevel]

The Aruch haShulchan (lR. Yechiel Michal Epstein who wrote his sefer in
the late 1880's) combines Yoreh Deah Siman 331 with 332 and writes in a
2 line synopsis that terumot and maasrot *einam nohagin klal bizman
ha'zeh" [these laws are not in effect AT ALL in modern times) and he
reiterates this at the end of the sentence ('v'sidrani halachot elu
b'hilchot she'einam nohahot bizman ha'zeh").

The Mishneh l'Melech was R. Yehudah Rosanes (Constantinople: 1657-1727)
and was heavily involved in the ban against Shabbetai Zvi. Perhaps there
is a connection between his ban on Shabbetai Zvi and his psak on the
kedusha of terumot and maasrot. I don't know and it's only a hunch.

Dr. Josh Backon

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:14:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Truma/Masar & the borders of israel

ZH B asked:
> Is there some minimum standard that all exporters must adhere to for
> Truma & Masar here in israel does all produce being exported to the
> States have even a minimum level of Hasgacha that Truma & Masar where
> taken (like on the State of israel level)

Shimon S. responded:
> Everything sold under the hechsher of the chief rabbinate is clear of
> Tevel.

While I understand it to be true that the Chief Rabbinate does claim to
have separated Terumah and Maaser from everything under their
supervision, as Shimon S. wrote, one must be careful to distinguish that
which *is* under their supervision, from that which is *not* under their
supervision. And the unfortunate truth is that whereas Tnuva (the main
agricultural company in Israel) is indeed under that supervision,
exporters are not.

My source is an article on the OU website at
which says, in part:

"Many people mistakenly believe that the Chief Rabbinate of Israel
separates terumah and ma'aser from all produce exported to America. Our
office clarified this matter with the Rabbanut and, regrettably, this is
presently not the case. Of course, if the produce is a packaged item
which bears reliable supervision, one need not be concerned with tevel;
however, in the absence of supervision, the consumer must separate
terumah and ma' aser himself."

Of course, as Shimon S. also wrote, the current Shemittah year has many
additional far-reaching implications on this subject.

Akiva Miller


End of Volume 56 Issue 11