Volume 56 Number 19
                    Produced: Mon Dec 31 17:59:52 EST 2007

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

62 Israel related YouTube videos
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat (5)
         [David Curwin, Akiva Miller, Ira L. Jacobson, Dr. Josh Backon,
Alex Heppenheimer]
More videos of Israel on YouTube
         [Nathan Hartman]
Nazi comparisons
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Sunrise Minyan
         [Dov Teichman]
Tachanun Depressed
         [Yisrael Medad]
         [Joseph Ginzberg]
Wine and Shmittah
         [Saul Mashbaum]
Z'manim - Two floors of a tall building.
         [David Ziants]


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:52:17 +0200
Subject: Re: 62 Israel related YouTube videos

Jacob Richman <jrichman@...> stated in mail-Jewish Vol. 56 #17

      I started a new section on my website related to good YouTube
      videos about Israel including specific sections for Israeli
      technology and a section for Israel music videos (oldies but
      goodies).  The address is:

I have seen far too many videos on Youtube that are extremely

But perhaps more significant are the text comments, some (many) of which
are anti-Semitic in the ugliest sense of the word.

First, I think that we ought to be commenting also (not to mention
posting our own videos, for those who can), to try to get some balance.
But I wonder if it isn't possible to get the management of YouTube to
ban outright anti-Semitism.

IRA L. JACOBSON         


From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 20:44:06 +0200
Subject: RE: Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat

As a follow up to my original question:

> One of the prohibitions on Yom Kippur is anointing with lotions
> (sicha).  But isn't that prohibited on Shabbat as well?

The source of the prohibition to "smear" on Shabbat is the term
"mimareach", and it is a tolada of "mochek" (erasing.) This prohibition
appears in Shabbat 75b. The Rambam mentions the prohibition in Hilchot
Shabbat 11:6. In the Rambam LeAm edition of the Rambam, there is a
footnote there that quotes the Aruch as saying that sicha and mericha
(along with some other terms) are one concept.

So if this is the case, it is hard to come up with an example of a case
where sicha would be permitted on shabbat but forbidden on Yom
Kippur. So what's the significance of a prohibition on Yom Kippur that's
already included in the general rule against melacha?


From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 03:12:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat

David Curwin asked:
> One of the prohibitions on Yom Kippur is anointing with lotions
> (sicha). But isn't that prohibited on Shabbat as well?

Nope. On Shabbos, the prohibition is only on smearing a cream, which I
understand might be forbidden with some very thick lotions as well. But
on Yom Kippur, it includes even liquids, such as perfume.

Akiva Miller

From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 13:57:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat

David Curwin <tobyndave@...> stated in mail-jewish Vol. 56 #17

      One of the prohibitions on Yom Kippur is anointing with lotions
      (sicha). But isn't that prohibited on Shabbat as well?

The Shabbat prohibition is called memare'ah and applies (in a simplified
description) to ointments and pastes rather than lotions.  This is not
the same as sikha of YK.

IRA L. JACOBSON         

From: Dr. Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 14:21:43 +0200
Subject: Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat

>One of the prohibitions on Yom Kippur is anointing with lotions
>(sicha). But isn't that prohibited on Shabbat as well?

The general rule is that "shmearing" a viscous thick "cream" on the body
in order for it to remain on the skin is prohibited Toraitically
(prohibition of "me'mareach, a "tolada" [derivative prohbition"] of
"memachek" (see: Magen Avraham in Orach Chayim 316 s"k 24, Tzitz Eiezer
VII 30, Minchat Yitzchak VII 20, Yabia Omer IV 27 and 28, Be'er Moshe I
36 oht 4, Shmirat Shabbat k'Hilchata 33:13).

In addition, there may also be a rabbinical prohibition of "she'chikat
sammanim" (making medications) (Orach Chayim 327:1).

In cases of moderate illness (choleh she'ein bo sakana) there are
specific ways how to apply medicinal creams and lotions (see: Sefer
Refuat haShabbat Chapter 26, a text designed for the religious
doctor). Only a detailed study of this chapter allows one to determine
how and under which situations these medicinal lotions may be
applied. Very briefly: direct application by hand is prohibited, placing
the cream/lotion on a synthetic pad may be permitted in case of illness.

The sugya is in the gemara (Shabbat 75b and 146b).

On the other hand, from understanding the Magen Avraham OC 316 s"k 24,
if one wants the lotion to be absorbed by the skin it may be permitted
especially if placed on a synthetic fabric and then placed on the skin
(see: Daat Torah 328:26). However the Shmirat Shabbat k'Hilchata 33 # 58
forbids if the entire amount of cream/lotion isn't absorbed by the skin.

I guess in this case: CYLOC (see your local Orthodox cosmetician :-) )

Josh Backon

From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:47:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Anointing with Lotions on Shabbat

In MJ 56:17, David Curwin asked:
>One of the prohibitions on Yom Kippur is anointing with lotions
>(sicha). But isn't that prohibited on Shabbat as well?

Sicha means applying any kind of liquid (except water, I guess) to a
surface. It includes using oil, for example (see Shemos 30:22, which
prohibits performing "sicha" with the anointing oil used in the

Sicha is permitted on Shabbos (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 327) as long
as it doesn't involve "smoothing out" a semisolid or thick liquid
(ibid. 314:11 and 328:26) - how thick it has to be, though, I'm not
sure. On Yom Kippur, by contrast, any kind of sicha is prohibited.

Kol tuv,


From: Nathan Hartman <nathanhartman@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:56:01 -0800
Subject: More videos of Israel on YouTube

Links to more beautiful videos of Israel on YouTube.


These are videos of young folks (ages 18 through 26) experiencing the
trip of a lifetime with Taglit-birthright israel and Sachlav Educational
Experience. If you know someone in this age group, please do not let
them miss out.

More info at www.IsraelOnTheHouse.com


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:06:36 -0500
Subject: Nazi comparisons

I just want to point out a problem with the Nazi comparisons used when
we discussed Frum First.  Hitler banned Jewish gentile sexual
relationships.  Yet I suspect none of us on this list would compare the
prohibition of intermarriage to Nazism.  Yet in the liberal world this
comparison is often made.  Which is why we need to be very careful never
to use comparisons to Nazis unless we are talking about someone wanting
to slaughter Jews.


From: <dtnla@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:32:28 -0500
Subject: Sunrise Minyan

I used to go to the (ha)netz minyan in Neve Yaakov (north of Jerusalem)
and I remember that when the Minyan approached Shmoneh Esrei the chazan
slowed down, and everyone looked (left=east) out the window overlooking
the Judean Desert (toward Jordan) and as soon as the first rays of the
sun poked over the horizon we began Shmoneh Esrei.

I would assume that they used the astronomic charts as a guide, but we
were not at sea level and other atmospheric factors would have caused
further divergence between observed sunrise and any published sunrise

-Dov Teichman


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:56:05 +0200
Subject: Tachanun Depressed

Without recourse to theology, but from my own political ideological
orientation, I strongly criticise the way the Tachanun has reinforced
the most negative of Jewish national characterisitcs which, I presume,
only strengthened what I call "The League of the Trembling Israelites"
and perhaps led to the sorrowful meekness of Jews, for the most part,
especially during the Holocaust.  I am referring to the phrase:
"nechshavnu latevach yuval" which although having roots in Tanach
(Yehsayhu 53:7; Tehilim 44:23; Yirmiyahu 12:3), is an original
composition using the words of Tanach but in a new fashion.

And, while theologically, one could state that it doesn't mean that we
Jews actually are as sheep being led to the slaughter but only that the
Goyim presume we are, (and recall the spies saying "v'nehi b'einenu
kachagavim"), any pyschologist would say that if we repeat that phrase
twice weekly for 30 years of the life of a Jewish male, we would
probably adopt that imagery and presume that we truly are as sheep and
act that way in expectation.

That is quite depressing.
Yisrael Medad


From: Joseph Ginzberg <jgbiz120@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:13:40 -0500
Subject: Tahanun

Yehonatan Chipman asks: 
> Someone asked how Hasidism, as a movement that 'favors religious
> emotion' in general, could try to avoid Tahanun.

He later says, 
> some years ago I was puzzled by the rather curious minhag in my (then)
> new shul, the 'Hildesheimer St.' shul in Jerusalem, of not saying
> Tahanun on Friday mornings.  I threw out the question to this list,
> and among the answers I received was that if one took Tahanun, and the
> accompanying Viddui, with proper seriousness, one would go into
> Shabbat feeling depressed!

Since a very basic tenet of chassidus is avoiding depression ("marah
Shechora") since sadness is blamed for leading man to sin, it seems to
me that he has answered his own question.

An oddity that had long bothered me while saying tachanun is that at my
eighth-grade graduation (in Chicago), we performed a cantata that was
mostly (IIRC) just tachanun in English.  How un-celebratory!

Yossi Ginzberg


From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:57:13 +0200
Subject: re: Wine and Shmittah

Steven Oppenheimer wrote
> This wine produced during shmittah and exported to the US may have
> kedushat shevi'it, if you do not accept the heter mechirah.  According
> to this view, you would then need to be sure to consume all the wine
> and not just dispose of the left-over wine.

Two practical applications of the above:

1) When using wine or grape juice with kdushat shviit for havdalah, one
does not purposely make the wine oveflow the cup. If it does, one
certainly cannot put the candle out by dipping it in the wine or grape

2) At the seder, I used wine with k'dushat shiit for the first, third,
and fourth cups, but not for the second, since it was unclear to me that
one could purposely spill out drops for the 10 makkot and d'tzach adash
b'achav, something I was very reluctant to forgo. I do not know if this
was the practice of others, and am uncertain that indeed it was
halachicly mandated.

Saul Mashbaum


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:49:46 +0200
Subject: Z'manim - Two floors of a tall building.

There is a discussion on this forum which relates to whether our z'manim
should primarily be based on the "luach" (fixed calendar) or on

I would like to raise a point that I don't think has been brought up
yet, and I heard in a shiur a little while ago.

Rav Sh'muel Zalman Aurbach (I think it was him) was once posek that two
baby boys that were born at the same time, one on a low floor and one on
a high floor, at Haddassa Ain Kerem hospital, were not considered born
on the same day. When the low floor boy was born it was already
considered night (after shekia) whereas the sun could still be seen
above the horizon on the higher floor of the building. Thus the brit of
the low floor baby was a day after that of the high floor, although were
born simultaneously.

In the same shiur, it was made clear that such an argument could not
usually be made for a community level decision like what time Shabbat
starts/ends, etc.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 56 Issue 19