Volume 56 Number 24
                    Produced: Fri Jan  4  5:48:23 EST 2008

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Astronomical Sunrise vs Viewed sunrise - The emotional beauty (2)
         [Joel Rich, Wendy Baker]
Characteristics of Frum Businesses
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Frum First in Israel
         [Kalman Neuman]
Frum First Network
         [Michael Poppers]
Missing Simanim n Aruch Hashulchan
         [Rabbi Wenger]
R. Shalom Carmy at ATID's 10th Annual Conference
         [Jeffrey Saks]
         [Chaim Tatel]
Zemanim on high
         [Andy Goldfinger]


From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 05:05:42 -0500
Subject: Astronomical Sunrise vs Viewed sunrise - The emotional beauty

>   My main question is: if you do Amida a few minutes too early are
> there any real negative consequences ?

I suppose we'd have to define "real negative consequences" but see S"A
O"C 89 - before netz is a bdieved time. See also Iggrot Moshe O"C 4:6
where he states iiuc that the value of netz is exactly at netz not
before (or after!  Others disagree)

Joel Rich

From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:15:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Astronomical Sunrise vs Viewed sunrise - The emotional beauty

> From: <chips@...>
>> So far so good. Now take the typical mail jewish reader. They probably
>> do not daven in a naytz minyan (Sunrise minyan). Suppose one day they
>> want to daven at sunrise. What should they do. Pray at astronomical
>> sunrise?
>   Oh, I think a lot more MJ readers daven "naytz" than the supposition.
> For instance, at this present time aren't all the "naytz" times in North
> America between 7 and 7:30 ? I would think (hope?) there are many,many
> minyan's that plan their Amida accordingly .

A personal note on Shacharit and sunrise.

The year my younger son was in kindergarten was the year of the oil
boycott by OPEC and we had daylight savings time all year round.  As we
walked east each morning to get to the school the sun was rising right
into our eyes and, although a bit blinding, it was glorious!  I remember
thinking and even remarking to our rabbi during this period, about how
clear it was that we davvened Shacharit to thank God for this glorious
daily occurance.  Even if not commanded, it woudl be something that
peole who are up and about at that time would do, almost instinctually.

Wendy Baker


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabba.hillel@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 05:25:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Characteristics of Frum Businesses

>From:  (Leah S. R. Gordon)
>Without exception, in my experience, every kosher/Jewish grocery store
>has had higher prices, ruder service, dirtier floors, less-convenient
>hours, less parking, fewer carts/baskets, surlier cashiers, and a more
>"entitled" attitude than my local goyish supermarket.  Often (and how
>this escapes city code is beyond me) the aisles are too narrow for a
>stroller or wheelchair, to boot.  ...
>And then let's talk about kosher restaurants, which only survive with
>their gas-station-cum-college-dorm ambience because they know that
>people like us have to go there or not go out to eat at all.  It was
>much better when we lived in the Los Angeles area, and I imagine there
>are exceptions in New York (though none I have patronized), but here in
>the Boston area we have a choice of rushed service, no service, rude
>service, slow service, or trying to make it into the city to the one
>decently-run place during limited hours.

Here in Baltimore we do not have that problem.  In fact, about 25 years
ago, we had some non-Jewish workers from out of town doing work at our
house.  They asked my wife for recommendations where to eat. She did not
think to suggest the Kosher restaurant then in town.  They asked the
construction workers putting up a Hilton and were actually given the
local Kosher restaurant as the best place to eat.

It is a matter of the individuals actually running the business and what
people will settle for.  Once you get a *good* place in the area, the
others will improve or go under.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<Sabba.Hillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water


From: Kalman Neuman <kalman.neuman@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:54:34 +0200
Subject: Frum First in Israel

I've thought a lot about the question of patronizing frum stores here in
Israel . I think that there is good reason to support stores, gas
stations, taxi companies etc. that are closed on shabbat (regardlesss of
the religious behavior of the owners and workers). As more and more
establishments here are open on Shabbat, it is obvious that others
undergo economic loss . Patronizing them will help offset the loss
caused by their choice not to work on shabbat.

Kalman Neuman


From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:31:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Frum First Network

In M-J V56#22, RILJ wrote:
> I see a general rule that we should support those closest to us,
> whether they be family, friends, members of our shul or just members
> of the religious community.

Frankly, I'm way behind in M-J reading, so I haven't read the recent
messages in this thread, but I was just informed of a WWWsite which
somewhat relates to Ira's point and which Chaim Shapiro et al. may be
interested in: http://www.yiddele.com/.  Have a look!

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA


From: Rabbi Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:43:39 -0500
Subject: Missing Simanim n Aruch Hashulchan

As I was searching for something in the Aruch HaShulchan, I discovered
that Vol. 1 Yoreh Deah ends with Siman 122 and Vol. 2 Yoreh Deah starts
with Siman 183. That means that there are around 60 Simanim in Yoreh
Deah that was not elaborated upon by the Aruch HaShulchan. Are there are
readers who have any idea why this is so.

Eliezer Wenger


From: Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:54:21 +0200
Subject: R. Shalom Carmy at ATID's 10th Annual Conference

ATID's 10th Annual Mid-Winter Conference THE CHALLENGE OF FOSTERING
LIFELONG RELIGIOUS GROWTH Rabbi Shalom Carmy, Yeshiva University, NY
Wednesday, January 16, 2008 at 7:45 PM Menachem Begin Heritage Center,

Whether or not education is wasted on the young, we often fail to
consider sufficiently how it continues after school's out. This includes
intellectual growth, which often is frozen at graduation, or regresses
because of new challenges in budgeting of time; and emotional growth,
which first begins with adulthood and its challenges. Other specific
issues have to do with awareness of one's limitations, due to time
pressure and encroaching mortality, and the changing nature of relations
to teachers and rabbis as one grows older. How can teachers and parents
set children on a path for lifelong religious, spiritual and
intellectual growth? What can we as adults do to avoid the pitfalls of
religious inertia?

7:45 PM Refreshments
8:00 PM Rabbi Shalom Carmy in dialogue with
Rabbi Chaim Brovender, President, ATID Foundation

Rabbi Shalom Carmy is professor of Bible, Philosophy, and Jewish Thought
at Yeshiva University in New York. He is the editor of Tradition: A
Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought, has authored scores of essays, and
edited volumes for the Orthodox Forum series, as well as Rabbi
Soloveitchik's writings on tefillah for the Otzar HaRav series. Rabbi
Carmy's essays can be sampled at: www.atid.org/resources/carmy.asp Rabbi
Carmy's lecture is being held as part of the intensive week he is
spending in Jerusalem, mentoring and teaching at ATID, as our 2008

02-567-1719 or <office@...>

Rabbi Carmy will deliver a shiur on Parshat HaShavua in English
Thursday, January 17 at 8:00 PM
Ohel Nechama, 3 Chopin Street, Jerusalem

Rabbi Jeffrey Saks
Director, ATID - Academy for Torah Initiatives and Directions
9 HaNassi St., Jerusalem 92188 ISRAEL
Tel. 02.567.1719 | Cell 052.321.4884 | Fax 02.567.1723
E-mail: <atid@...> | www.atid.org | www.WebYeshiva.org


From: Chaim Tatel <chaimyt@...>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 07:00:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Sunrise

Menashe Elyashiv wrote: "The differnce is about 12 minutes, because of
the hills close by, the latest sunrise is very late, 6:52."

6:52 is "late?"
Here is Seattle, WA, Outer Golus, sunrise this morning is 7:58 AM.
Chaim Tatel


From: Andy Goldfinger <Andy.Goldfinger@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:02:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Zemanim on high

Regarding the times of sunset or sunrise in high or low places, there
was some mention of Denver.  Please note that it is not the ABSOLUTE
height of the location that causes a variation in the sunrise/sunset
times, but the height RELATIVE to the surrounding terrain (except for a
very small and negligible effect).  Hence, since Denver is surrounded by
plains that are at about the same altitude (excluding the mountains to
the west), there should be no difference between its zmanim and those at
sea level.

-- Andy Goldfinger


End of Volume 56 Issue 24