Volume 56 Number 68 
      Produced: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:39:30 EDT

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Actions to Hasten Moshiach 
    [J Friedman]
Edot Hamizrach Musaf for Festivals 
    [Mark Symons]
Kaddish Names 
    [Menashe Elyashiv]
Shul Minhagim 
    [David Ansbacher]
The name of the Amora Plimo 
    [Yisroel Israel]
Tzedakah given with the right hand? 
    [Shmuel Himelstein]
Wearing a Kipa at Work (6)
    [Harry Weiss  Carl Singer  Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz  Ari Trachtenberg  Russell J Hendel  Akiva Miller]
What "triggers" Kaddish D'Rabbanim 
    [Carl Singer]
Yosef's dream vs Paro's dream? 
    [David Curwin]
Zman Shacharis/t on the plane (5)
    [Alexander Seinfeld  Joel Rich  Michael Mirsky  Perets Mett  Ken Bloom]


From: J Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Actions to Hasten Moshiach

> I think that the idea is that even though we know that he will come
> when Hashem decides that it is time, we are still required to perform
> our hishtadlus (effort).  It is like making an income or buying
> insurance. Even though it is really up to Hashem, we are still
> required to go to work.

Isn't this opening a can of worms? If the Choser of Lublin thought
Napoleon would hasten Moshiach, people who thought Hitler would bring
Moshiach would support him, in one way or another. The Choser was
definitely using Kaballah to do that and Der Yid was against it and
told him so. So you see where this kind of thinking can lead...do we
hasten the Moshiach if we support Ahmedinejad? Are we going to be like
evangelicals waiting for the rapture?
Don't we have to be much more careful than that?
I think this is something to examine carefully in terms of how this
affects all sorts of things in our lives...



From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Edot Hamizrach Musaf for Festivals

I was recently very surprised to discover that in nusach Edot
Hamizrach for musaf for shalosh regalim (in the siddur that I have
anyway), the specific quotes from the Torah of the specific musaf
sacrifices are not mentioned - as they are in Ashkenaz/Sefarad/Ari -
(neither do "minchatam v'niskeihem" get a mention). Instead, the
wording is simply "et musaf yom ......  hazeh, naaseh v'nakriv
l'fanecha b'ahavah k'mitzvat r'tzonach, k'mo shekatavta aleinu
b'toratach, al y'dei moshe avdach".  There the section ends, and the
paragraph beginning "elokeinu veilokei avoteinu, melech rachaman"

This is not the case for musaf for Shabbat (when not during a chag),
nor for musaf Rosh Chodesh, when the specific korbanot are mentioned.

Any ideas why?

Mark Symons


From: Menashe Elyashiv <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Kaddish Names

S. Himmelstein asked
> I recently Davened in an Eidot Mizrachi (so-called "Oriental") Minyan...

OK - Kaddish is called: Titkabal (full Kadish), Yehe Shloma
(mourners), Al Israel (derabanan), some call the 1/2 Kaddish - L`ela
and the very long one said (lo alanu) at burials, siyum and tisha
beav, (btw, it is the Yemanite derabanan)


From: David Ansbacher <dansbacher@...>
Date: Mon, Jun 1,2009 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Shul Minhagim

> Yisrael Medad asked
> > On another issue Martin keeps bringing up, - "The fact that, on his own
> > admission, he had never obtained hatarat hora'ah (formal rabbinic
> > ordination) may well explain his obvious sensitivity in such matters."
> > Forget about Ashkenaz customs, what synagogue/congregation hires a Rabbi
> > who basically isn't a Rabbi or is Martin referring to something else
> > other than a plain Yoreh Yoreh or even Yadin Yadin?
> This might relate to something that I was thinking about. I am not
> familiar with Martin's community but some googling suggests that the
> Rabbi is a former Rosh Kollel. This may well explain the lack of
> formal ordination. Someone learning at a high level in a Kollel might
> not see the formal studying of Shulchan Aruch for examination as
> relevant to their learning.
> Alan Rubin

Dear Yisrael Medad

The Rabbi who Martin is referring to, arrived at his new post, at the only truly
traditional Ashkenas shul in Manchester, some three and a half years ago without
proper semicha and had had no previous experience as a community rabbi. The
arrangement was that he could continue teaching at the small yeshiva where he
had been for several years so long as the two jobs did not clash. However he
took on a third job as Rosh Kollel of an afternoon kollel without permission and
was made to resign from the other teaching post as as result.
He started out by telling old established members that he was in charge and
those who did not like the changes he would make should leave. About half the
members were bullied into doing so, the rest intimidated into silence. Only
Martin refused to be bullied so the new rabbi declared him a persona non grata
and had him physically prevented from entry. Martin then took the rabbi to a Din
Torah in front of Dayan Berger who paskened that a new Rav to an old established
shul, halachikly, is not allowed to change Minhogim or Nusach. His reply was
that he would not have his decisions questioned by that world-renowned Dayan or
anyone else.

David Ansbacher.


From: Yisroel Israel <arzei@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: The name of the Amora Plimo

Do take a look at the Boaz No 3 in Pesachim Perek 10 Mishanah 8, where
he states Chazal when adopting foreign e.g. Greek words, first
"Judaised" them altering the word and it's reading.


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Tzedakah given with the right hand?

I recently Davened in an Edot Mizrach Shul in Netanya. Between Mincha and
Maariv I went over to the Shul charity box ("pushke") and put a few coins
in. One of the locals "admonished" me (very gently, I must add) for having
used my left hand for putting the money in. I, Nebbich, am left-handed. Has
anyone heard of such a "requirement"?

I can add that when I spoke to friends who are of the Edot Mizrach, they
pointed out that there is a Minhag to put in three coins - two with the
right hand and one with the left hand. I understand that this practice is

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Sun, May 31,2009 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

  .... and the stories they could tell.

Here are a few thoughts -- but, of course, you need to make your own
decisions. (I live in the greater NYC area, but grew up in the Midwest and
was stationed away from NYC, as well.)

When I was young(er?) and wanted to fit in I relied on those who said it was
OK not to wear one.  I'd wear a hat outside, but no yarmulke at work.

A neighbor of mine explained one day that after the 6-day war there was such
a swelling of Jewish Pride and that's about when he entered the workforce -
he chose to start work wearing a yarmulke.  A bit awkward as some of his
frum colleagues didn't wear one.

When I was working at Bellcore (in a NJ "suburb" of New York)  which had
several frum employees (mincha minyan at work) I went to Israel on a
business trip and thought of the absurdity of not wearing a yarmulke in
Israel and just kept wearing it from then on.  Did so at IBM, some
consulting gigs and at the Bank of New York Mellon.

I've only had one negative reaction -- and in retrospect it was  actually
for the better.  I came in for an interview for a rather senior position at
a major New York bank and when the Human Resource person saw the yarmulke
she did "a little tap dance" and instead of meeting with the senior
executive who I was scheduled to meet with I had a wasted meeting with two
HR types.  It was for the good, because I wouldn't want to work with anyone
who wouldn't want me.  (OK, I have the luxury of turning down jobs.)  And to
malign a Groucho Marx quotation, "I wouldn't want to work anyplace that
wouldn't want me as a member."

In the Army, I never wore a yarmulke when in uniform -- I'll leave that to
chaplains -- (BTW outdoors one always wears headgear - except, it seems in
the Israel army)  -- but even when on duty, if I was wearing mufti (civilian
clothes) I wore a yarmulke.  At times colleagues who didn't now me that well
would ask me if it was a "special day" or a "holiday" and I'd explain.  I've
been fortunate in never really having any related problems when working with
devoutly religious gentiles.  Army was mostly in DC or Carlisle

Carl A. Singer, Ph.D.
Colonel, U.S. Army Retired

From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

I wear a Kipah to work. Sacramento is far less Jewish than LA, and
I am the only Jew in the office. I have never had a problem, and I
think wearing a Kipah helps avoid other problems. People know I am
an observant Jew and thus am not available or Shabbat and cannot
participate in many social functions.

From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

> From: Mark Goldin<goldinfamily@...>
> I wonder if many Mail-Jewish readers in the US have struggled with the
> decision to wear a kippah to work. I never did, and would eat at my
> desk without saying a bracha. I know many frum people who do the same.
> I should point out that I live in LA and imagine this challenge exists
> everywhere in the USA outside of New York. I'd prefer to focus on
> regions where fear of actual physical danger is not the issue.
> I have many other questions, but I am more interested in the
> experience of others and any discussion around this. I also don't
> understand why wearing the kippah is considered a minhag when it
> appears as halacha in the SA. Needless to say, one's behavior must
> be beyond reproach in the workplace.

I have always worn a kipah at work (I have been in the work force
since 1970) and have never had a problem.  I have been approached as
an "expert" in halacha by people (usually non-Jews) who wanted to know
various things because of that.  It has made it easier for me to take
off early Friday and for Yom Tov.  I never thought of not wearing the
kipah, not because I am "so good", but because it never occurred to me
that there might be a problem.  Perhaps it is because I am in the
computer software area and "programmers are weird" is a given in any
case. I know that my sons (accountant and actuaries) wear their kipahs
and have not had problems either.  I think that as long as someone
just assumes that it will work out, it winds up being accepted, just
like the goyim know that one cannot eat with them.

I have heard a story of someone who wrestled with the problem when
going to a law firm for an interview.  He took off his kipah at the
last minute and walked in to find the interviewers wearing kipahs.

Personally, I think that as long as you just wear it as a matter of
course, the people at work will accept it in the same way.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

Mark Goldin <goldinfamily@...> wrote:
> ... How concerned need one be about the feelings of direct reports
> who might feel offended or intimidated? I once had someone turn down a
> good job offer because one of the interviewers had a bible in his
> office. Both parties were goyim.

I have always worn a kippa both to work and to interviews. My
personal feeling is that it is better to know in advance whether an
employer will have a problem with my observance, since, for example, I
would very soon have to ask for vacations during the holidays. Often,
the kippa has actually served as a mnemonic through which people
remembered me among the multitude of people that they meet.


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

Two short comments on Mark Goldin's interesting question

1) You SHOULD ALWAYS say a beracha on food EVEN if you are not wearing
a kippah. So if FOR WHATEVER REASON you are not wearing a kippah and
you are eating then make all customary beracoth (It is not necessary
to cover your head or any other "silly thing")

COMMENT: One strong reason for the above is that Bircat Hamazon (Grace
after meals) is Biblically obligated when you eat a full meal and that
cannot be overridden by a "minhag" (Custom) to cover ones head But in
any event the requirement of saying a blessing is RABBINIC and
overrides the MINHAG (Custom) of wearing a kippah

2)I have heard that Rav Hirsch paskined that you do NOT need a Kippah
in doors. His logic was that a kippah is not a POSITIVE requirement
but a NEGATIVE requirement. The requirement is not to have your head
bear since it is an affrontery to heaven. IT FOLLOWS, argues Rav
Hirsch, that this affrontery only occurs outdoors and therefore
indoors there is not even a requirement to wear a kippah. (In other
words the building ceiling functions as your kippah)

I think Mark's question is interesting and deserves an answer...but I
am simply making 2 additional points which will supplement any answer

Russell Jay Hendel; Ph.d. ASA

From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Wearing a Kipa at Work

Mark Goldin wrote:
> I wonder if many Mail-Jewish readers in the US have struggled
> with the decision to wear a kippah to work.

On the one hand, all my jobs have been in the metropolitan New York
City area, where wearing a yarmulka is much less unusual than
elsewhere, so my experiences may not be fully applicable to people in
other areas.

On the other hand, when I began the employment period of my life, and
I raised all the points that Mr. Goldin mentioned in his post, my wife
countered with an exceedingly valuable piece of practical advice: If
you keep the yarmulka on for the interview and the job, kashrus will
be easier, Shabbos will be easier, and Yom Tov will be easier.

And so I did. And beyond whatever rewards might be ahead for me in the
next world for holding steadfastly to this minhag / halacha /
whatever, I have already been rewarded amply in this world in the lack
of hassles with my bosses. This is not to say that there haven't been
times when my presence in the office on Shabbos or Yom Tov would have
been welcomed (Shabbos of Y2K being a notable example), but I have not
had to explain myself over and over and over. In my job interviews I
always mentioned the need to leave early on winter Fridays, and my
plans to use vacation days for Yom Tov. As a result, it never became
an issue once I was on the job. Similarly, it was also easy to decline
when co-workers had lunch at a nearby restaurant.

> I never did, and would eat at my desk without saying a bracha.
> I know many frum people who do the same.

I never heard of this before. Walking around without a yarmulka is
easy to find a heter for. Making a bracha without a yarmulka is
tougher. But to eat without a bracha is clearly assur, as far as I

> I have no idea to what extent this affected my job search. Did
> it repel potential offers? Could it possibly have endeared me
> to certain employers?

I too have no idea how many employers chose not to hire me because of
this. I have no idea how to go about finding out such information. I'd
love to know. I do know that it worked in my favor in at least one
case; that boss was fairly active in his reform synagogue.

Akiva Miller


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Sun, May 31,2009 at 10:01 PM
Subject: What "triggers" Kaddish D'Rabbanim

Frequently between Mincha and Ma'ariv and in other situations one wants to
learn in order to facilitate the recitation of Kaddish D'Rabbanim.

The situation described by Mechy Frankel in v56 #57 causes me to ask two
related questions relating to the "subject matter and / or source" and the
degree or characterization of the "learning" that takes place that permits
one to say the Kaddish D'Rabbanim.  (OK, I used the inelegant term

1 - What sources do / do not qualify?  Why would or wouldn't a Rabbi Wein
book qualify.  What about, say, one of the many books by Rabbi Pliskin that
relate stories re: medos.  What about a Chumash?

2 - What constitutes "learning" - is simply reading verses without
commentary sufficient?



From: David Curwin <tobyndave@...>
Date: Mon, Jun 1,2009 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Yosef's dream vs Paro's dream?

Is anyone aware of any midrash, commentary or other source that compares
(and contrasts) the alumot (sheaves) in Yosef's dream and the shibolim
(stalks) in Paro's dream? 
David Curwin


From: Alexander Seinfeld <seinfeld@...>
Date: Mon, Jun 1,2009 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

> Forgive my innocence please, but why is it necessary to check times
> and data tables when the rising of the sun is always and immediately
> visible from an airplane at 30,000+ feet? Even with the shades drawn
> the sun's rays will be clearly visible on the shades on one side of
> the plane or the other. It is true that on the ground below the sun
> may not yet have risen, but that would be rectified in just a few
> minutes, and anyway, we are on the airplane and not on the ground.
> Am I missing something?
> Bernie R.

Very simple - the zman comes and goes so quickly - in the middle of a New
Yorker's "night" according to his body-clock, that if he doesn't set an
alarm, he will likely miss it altogether.

From: Joel Rich <JRich@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

Many hold it goes by what you would see from the ground if you dropped a
plumb line from the plane to sea level.
Joel Rich

From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

First of all "dawn" and "sunrise" have different definitions by
different poskim so you can't rely on just looking outside to
determine the *earliest* time to daven. And more importantly, these
tables help you to know when the *latest* time would be for Shema and
Amida (I know I have often woken up on a midnight flight to Israel,
looked outside and saw that it's broad daylight, but wasn't sure if I
still had time to say Shema on time.

Michael Mirsky

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

The time of sunrise is very likely obvious on a plane if the windows
are not obscured. The purpose of the tables is to calculate sof zman
krias shma, sof zman tfila etc

Perets Mett

From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@...>
Date: Tue, Jun 2,2009 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Zman Shacharis/t on the plane

First: Sof Zeman Shema, Sof Zeman Tefillah, and the various Mincha
zemanim are not so visible.

Second: AIUI when you're on the ground you're supposed to be machimr for
both the zmanim at sea level, and zmanim at your present elevation. (I'm
not sure whether this would mean cruising altitude on an airplane or
whether it would mean the elevation of the ground below you). All you
can see from a plane is sunrise at cruising altitude. Sunrise at sea
level would be significantly later.



End of Volume 56 Issue 68