Volume 58 Number 02 
      Produced: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:50:07 EDT

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

absorption of food by utensils (4)
    [Eitan Fiorino  N. Yaakov Ziskind  Carl Singer  Martin Stern]
apple juice bottles (2)
    [Carl Singer  Freda B Birnbaum]
candle lighting time (2)
    [Martin Stern  Martin Stern]
Chana's prayer (was: hair/modesty) 
    [Alex Heppenheimer]
    [Martin Stern]
education (was kid inadvertently treifs grape juice?) (2)
    [Stuart Wise  Stuart Wise]
electronic stuff etc 
    [Ari Trachtenberg]
    [Jacob Sasson]
Israel independence day 
    [Mordechai Horowitz]
Shabbat and the Internet 
    [Moshe Bach]
waiting for dairy (2)
    [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz  Ben Katz]


From: Eitan Fiorino <afiorino@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: absorption of food by utensils

Akiva Miller wrote:
> On many occasions, I have purchased an ordinary glass bottle 
> of apple juice from my supermarket, and tried to use it as a 
> refillable water bottle after the juice was finished. I was 
> never able to remove the apple juice taste from the bottle.

This could just as likely be caused by adsorption, which is the binding of a
substance to a surface, which chemically is not the same as absorption.


From: N. Yaakov Ziskind <awacs@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: absorption of food by utensils

Akiva Miller wrote:
> If anyone *has* successfully gotten the apple juice flavor out of such 
> a bottle, I'd love to know what their cleaning method was.

Have you tried soaking vinegar in it?

From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 18,2010 at 11:01 AM
Subject: absorption of food by utensils

I think we're looking a two different issues:

1 - the halachic definition(s)

It seems that the halacha focuses on materials - some of which are
categorized as being absorbent of tam [taste] and (obviously) some
categorized as non-absorbent.  The complexity seems to come from "mapping"
today's manufactured materials into the originally defined materials and
thus categorizing them.   For example,  is "PYREX glass bakeware" (this
terminology is direct from the manufacturer) equivalent to "glass" and how
do we categorize it?

2 - the physical phenomena of absorption of tam

We can run all sorts of experiments -- if empirically one feels that the
smell of apples never leaves an all glass bottle -- perhaps its the
non-glass lid -- or perhaps it's an issue of how well the glass bottle is
washed or perhaps it's psychological.   One can ask a 2nd party to prepare
many glass bottles which formerly held other items (apple juice, orange
juice, grape juice, pickles, etc.)  and see if one can identify the former
content.  One can run more measured experiments using spectography or other
instrumentation --

*But do the outcomes matter from an halachic perspective?*   If by halachic
definition glass does not absorb, do any physical findings in support or
against this definition matter?

I'm brought back to the "bugs in the water" discussions -- if the halachic
definition prohibits bugs that are visible to the naked eye -- however that
acuity is defined -- then does it matter that there are bugs visible via a


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 19,2010 at 05:01 AM
Subject: absorption of food by utensils

I think that the word 'absorption' in the present thread is misleading in
that the phenomenon we are discussing is not one of the actual absorption of
mamashot [physically identifiable particles] of food by the vessel in which
it was cooked (or stored for 24 hours).

If actual mamashot were present then they would have to be removed before
any kashering process could begin (except for libun [dry heating to
incandescence] where any would be destroyed in its application).

A more accurate description in modern terminology would be 'adsorption'
which is a phenomenon whereby submicroscopic molecules become attached to a

Martin Stern


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: apple juice bottles

First the cap is plastic.

Try this experiment:
-- if you can find similarly shaped bottles - have a friend remove the labels,
and any other markings from say apple juice, grape
juice, prune juice, orange juice, water containers
-- label them only with a number
-- use them as water refill bottles and see if you can really tell
which is which.

Carl A. Singer

From: Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: apple juice bottles

Akiva Miller more:
> If anyone *has* successfully gotten the apple juice flavor out of such a 
> bottle, I'd love to know what their cleaning method was.

I'm wondering if the opening of the bottle was too small to get your hand 
or a brush into it in such a way as to give it a vigorous enough 
scrubbing?  Or perhaps the smell is from the jar lid: on some of the metal 
ones there is a bit of a coating around the inside of the rim which seems 
a bit sticky, or at least non-smooth.

Just a hunch.  (Actually it's hard to find the stuff in glass bottles any 

Freda Birnbaum,
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Mar 23,2010 at 04:01 AM
Subject: candle lighting time

Wendy Baker wrote:
> Is this one and a quarter secular hours or 1/2 of the daylight hours?  This
> could be important because it is in the summer when the daylight lasts for
> well over 12 hours...

For halachic purposes, all hours are one twelfth of the time between sunrise
and sunset [or daybreak and night according to the opinion] and NOT clock

Martin Stern

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: candle lighting time

Menashe Elyashiv wrote: 
> One has to light before sunset   However, if one brings in Shabbat at Plag
> before time  The question is how much time before sunset is needed?
> Lighting too early can have a situation that the candles are lit but work in
> the house continues by everybody except the mother.

I know this is an old thread but I saw the summary of the dinim [laws --MOD]
below in the issue of Daily Halacha on Friday 16 April:

When making an early Shabbos one should remember the following;

1. It is most preferable to daven Mincha before "Plag Hamincha" and Maariv
after the Plag. (1)
2. Men must repeat Krias Shema [reading of the sh'ma --MOD] after it is night. (2)
3. One should try to stretch the meal to eat at least a k'zayis [a (large)
olive's worth --MOD] of bread after dark. (3)
4. It is permitted for a Jew who has (individually - as opposed to a whole
community) accepted an early Shabbos to directly ask a Jew who has not yet
accepted Shabbos (and certainly a non-Jew) to perform a melacha [prohibited
Sabbath work --MOD] on his behalf, except for one's own wife. (4)
5. Members of a household are independent of each other. Therefore if the
husband accepted Shabbos early for convenience sake (and not for the Mitzva
of Tosafos Shabbos [adding to the Sabbath --MOD] ) the wife may light candles
until Shkiah [sunset --MOD]. Likewise, when the wife lights candles early this
does not require her husband, sons, or even daughters to accept Shabbos early. (5)

(1) SA w/Mishnah Brurah 233:5 MB11, SA 267:3 see Biur Halacha
(2) SA w/Mishnah Brurah 235:1 MB5,6,7, SA w/ Mishnah Brurah 267:6
(3) SA w/Mishnah Brurah 267:5
(4) SA w/Mishnah Brurah 263:17
(5) Igros Moshe 3:38, SA 263:10
See also Sefer 39 Melochos

Martin Stern


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Sat, Apr 17,2010 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Chana's prayer (was: hair/modesty)

In MJ 58:01, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz wrote:

>The Talmud in Brachot (31b) elaborates on part of Chana's famous prayer to the
>Ribono Shel Olam [Master of the Universe --MOD] for children. "Master of the
>Universe," she cried, ... "I will be forced to seclude myself with
>another man and go through the sotah process in order to force You to grant me 

>The Sages of the Talmud derive that Chana spoke audaciously to Hashem from the
>phrase: "Vatitpallel al Hashem" -- "and [Chana] prayed to [literally: on] G-d.
>(Samuel I 1:10)" The usage of al (on) rather than the more familiar el (to)
>indicates that "hiticha dvarim klapei mala" -- she thrust words up to heaven.
>Interestingly, though, Chanas prayer was answered immediately. Why would Hashem
>reward a brazen request with a speedy reply?

We're told that "Hashem doesn't hold a person responsible for what they say in
their distress" (Bava Basra 16b). That was in reference to Iyov, who said some
pretty harsh - even borderline heretical - things during his discussions with
his friends; Chana's "threat" was of course nowhere near as bad as that.

Also, on a basic peshat [plain text --MOD] level, we may say that it was
something of an empty threat: Chana had no actual intention of doing so immodest
an act. She was saying, though: "Hashem! The very fact that I am so driven to
desperation that I would even contemplate such a thing - let that be an extra
reason to answer my prayer."

Either way, then, it wasn't a "brazen request" but one of a person at the end of
her rope.

On a different level:  in one of his talks (Lag Baomer 5710, Hebrew text
athttp://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/tm/1/15/63), the
Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l observes that even if she had carried out this plan, it
would have been considered a good thing rather than an immodest act.  He
compares it to R' Zeira's actively working to forget the Babylonian Talmud so
that he could learn the Jerusalem one (as told in Bava Metzia 85a); ordinarily,
as we say in this coming week's Pirkei Avos (3:8), one is held liable for
forgetting his learning, but here R' Zeira is commended for doing so, because it
was in order to become capable of reaching a higher level of service of Hashem.
In the same way, Chana's plea for a child wasn't simply in order to satisfy her
personal needs, but in order to have him be a lifelong servant of Hashem, as in
fact she dedicated him to be.

Kol tuv,


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Mar 23,2010 at 06:01 AM
Subject: chumrah

<rogovin@...> wrote:
> However, there is another way that communities seemingly adopt chumrot, in
> this case without their informed consent.
> Using kashrut as an example this works as follows. Rabbis and rabbinical
> organizations with control over kashrut adopt as their standard a chumra.
> Examples: 
> (1) labeling a product as dairy even though it is parve but made on equipment
> that is used for dairy (Oreos, sorbet)

Though such products are not completely milky, one would still have to avoid
cooking them with meat therefore this labeling has some basis though it
would have been preferable if this could have been made clearer.

> (2) glatt kosher (the OU actually supervises the production of non-glatt meat,
> they just don't certify it)

Many people do not understand the difference between glatt and stam
[ordinary] kosher meat. Such people, who therefore demand glatt, are almost
certainly not the ba'alei nefesh [extremely pious individuals] mentioned in
the Shulchan Aruch as being advised to avoid meat from an anmimal on which a
sha'alah [question --MOD] has been asked. Unfortunately, this has distorted the
market so that stam kosher is no longer financially viable. One cannot blame the
supervisory bodies for this.

> (3) saying one should not use a toothpaste containing chametz on pesach while
> at the same time saying that toothpaste is not considered food and need not be
> checked for pesach

The only problem with such toothpaste, or ones containing glycerine the
whole year, is that it might be swallowed which might invoke the principle
of "achshevei" [a non-kosher substance that has lost its status as food
regains it if one designates it as such e.g. by swallowing it]. Thus there
is a distinction between toothpaste in its tube [not chametz] and in one's

> (4) gebrochts (the OU will not certify products with gebrochts and now claims
> (2010 pesach guide) there is no demand for such products as the communal
> standard has changed)

As in (2) this is due to market forces and one cannot blame rabbis for not
'forcing' manufacturers to produce products that they cannot easily sell.

> (5) classifying peanuts and quinoa as kitniyot (the former is certainly
> disputed, the latter odd since it is a fruit not a grain and was unknown in
> Europe - as a general rule we don't add to established chumrot, though in
> fairness corn should also not be included yet it is)

There are disputes as to what constitutes kitniot and one opinion includes
any seed of a plant (as opposed to a tree)

> (6) no longer certifying mei kitniyot products (oils, syrups) as was done in
> the past (even peanut oil, which the  OU certified through the late 1990s has
> been withdrawn to to "lack of demand" and "confusion")

Again, whether liquids derived from kitniot are included in the custom is a
matter of dispute but the answer is as stated "lack of demand" not rabbinic

In summary, I would suggest that the spread of these, and may other, humras
is a result of people not having a masoret [family or communal tradition]
and thereby accepting any wild statements from those who have one to be
strict in any particular matter as if they are universally accepted. This
then distorts the "market" to the disadvantage of those who have such a
masoret to be lenient in a particular case - sales are maximised if the
goods have a wider appeal.

Martin Stern


From: <Menashe.Elyashiv@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 18,2010 at 10:01 AM
Subject: dates

Interesting to note: that in the next 10 years, starting now, Pesah will 
fall only on Tuesday or Shabbat, not on Thursday. That means that the 
Tishray holydays will not fall on Shabbat, and Shofar will be blown and 
Lulav will be taken on the first day.  Also, everyone will say tahanun on 5 
Iyar, because celebrations will be either on 4 or 6 Iyar. Or  maybe some 
will have a "2 day holyday". BTW, it is rumored that the Shofar was blown 
in one Beit Din in Jerusalem this year.


From: Stuart Wise <Smwise3@...>
Date: Tue, Apr 13,2010 at 09:01 PM
Subject: education (was kid inadvertently treifs grape juice?)

> Greek  and Roman mythology is quite important in understanding much of 
> Western  literature.  Shakespeare and many other writers use references to  
> these characters and gods, godesses, etc.  unless you think it wise  forbid 
> reading of all such classics, it is necessary to learn these myths,  etc. 
> they are often part of school curricula for this reason.   Children learn, 
> generally, that these are the myths of people who lived  long ago and go 
> not think of them as religions they might  "practice."

I don't recall these classics being part of the yeshiva curriculum, and [I] am 
not convinced that a person cannot live a full and meaningful life without 
studying Greek and Roman mythology.  The anecdote that raised this issue--namely
 the kid playing avodah zarah [foreign worship --MOD] --may be an isolated
incident, but by the same  token, unless the child plans to be an English
professor or even an English major, it seem unnecessary to expose kids to this.
Kids are so impressionable  and one never knows what can be triggered by a
seemingly harmless exposure. 
Stuart Wise

From: Stuart Wise <Smwise3@...>
Date: Tue, Apr 13,2010 at 09:01 PM
Subject: education (was kid inadvertently treifs grape juice?)

Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> One of  the things I truly love about Judaism is that it's main book is 
> called  Torah - To Teach... I've never seen anything good come from ignorance.

Would you feel the same about exposing children to pornography? Why, based  
on your reasoning, children should be educated and shown it so they know 
what to avoid. Sorry, I don't buy that either.
Stuart. Wise


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 12:01 AM
Subject: electronic stuff etc

David Tzohar wrote:
> The hazon Ish had a brilliant and original solution. The
> prohibition of electricity is "boneh" (building).  Any electrical circuit
> before it is activated has absolutely no purpose. By closing the circuit we
> are "building" a new construct, bringing to life something that could not be
> used previously.

As has been discussed on the list earlier, R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
(and later, based on this, R' Broyde) analyzes a number of possible
prohibitions of electricity, including fire, creation of something new, 
building, striking a final hammer blow, sparks, adding fuel, and 
producing heat (see, for example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat_in_Jewish_law), and 
appears to roundly reject them all (although he does not ultimately 
permit the use of electricity on Shabbat).

Interestingly, if one takes the view of electricity as "building", how 
would direct solar-powered devices fare?  The circuit itself is never 
physically changed, and heating by sunlight appears to be permitted
on Shabbat (although many solar powered devices are actually battery-supported,
where the ensuing chemical reaction that provides electricity might be an issue).



From: Jacob Sasson <jsasson@...>
Date: Sun, Apr 18,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: in-laws

Mark Steiner wrote:
> In fact, there is no word for mekhutonim in any of the European languages,
> as far as I am aware.  The reason is, obviously, that the Christians do
> not recognize mekhutonim as relatives: they don't seem to have to invite
> them to baptisms, weddings, etc., as we do to circumcisions, etc.>

Not true.  The Spanish word "Consuegro[s]" (defined as the
father-in-law/mother-in-law of one's son/daughter) is a direct translation.  It
is commonly used in Sephardic communities, who presumably brought the word to
their lands after the expulsion from Spain.

Jacob Sasson


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Mon, Apr 19,2010 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Israel independence day

Why is Israel Independence day pushed off when Israel's day of 
remembrance falls on Sunday?  I understand why you would move the day 
when there is a conflict with Shabbat but when it falls on Motzei 
Shabbat it doesn't make sense?


From: Moshe Bach <moshe.bach@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Shabbat and the Internet

I'm writing this at Friday 2:30pm in California, after midnight back home in
Israel.  Shabbat Friday night.

Is there an issue to connect to Israel radio broadcast live over the Internet? 
Similarly, is there an issue connecting from Israel on a Saturday night to a
live internet broadcast in the US?

In both cases, I'm not causing anyone to do any work on Shabbat, although it
doesn't feel "shabbos-dic".

maury (moshe) bach


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: waiting for dairy

Frank Silbermann wrote:
> ... Apparently, the German community still relies on the Ashkenazi Rishonim'
> opinion of one hour -- but generally accepted a chumra (stringent custom) of
> extending it an extra two hours.
> Since when does a community require the backing of the Rishonim to adopt a
> chumra?

I think that the original question was based on the assumption, that
rather than being a community chumra [stricture --MOD], the 3 hours was a
specific determination, just as the 1 hour or 6 hour values were specific
determinations of a time.  In any case, the question would still arise
as to how the chumra developed and how it was determined that three hours was
the proper amount of time for this chumra.
   Sabba   -        -   Hillel
Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz | Said the fox to the fish, "Join me ashore"
<SabbaHillel@...> | The fish are the Jews, Torah is our water
From: Ben Katz <BKatz@...>
Date: Fri, Apr 16,2010 at 05:01 PM
Subject: waiting for dairy

Frank Silbermann wrote:
> Menashe Elyashiv: V57 #99:
> > In the Rishonim [leading rabbis from 11th-15th centuries], there are 2 waiting
> > times: 1 hour & 6 hours... The German 3 hours is a custom, but not a known >
> > Rishonim opinion.
> Apparently, the German community still relies on the Ashkenazi Rishonim'
> opinion of one hour -- but generally accepted a chumra (stringent custom) of
> extending it an extra two hours.
> Since when does a community require the backing of the Rishonim to adopt a
> chumra? 

They don't.  In fact, more often than not, religious communities did things to
express their piety (eg answering baruch hu uvaruch shemo [blessed is He and
blessed is His name] or writing piyutim [religious poetry] to be added to the
prayer service) which rabbis were [not] too keen on.


End of Volume 58 Issue 2