Volume 58 Number 91
Produced: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:07:27 EDT
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Changing one's seat during availus (5)
[Elie Rosenfeld Josh Backon "Rabbi R. Bulka" Haim Snyder Sam Gamoran]
Changing one's seat during aveilus
[Perets Mett]
How and When are MJ Digests produced?
[Akiva Miller]
Psalm 27 (3)
[Fay Berger Elazar M. Teitz David Ziants]
to the males of this list.
[Jeanette Friedman]
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From: Elie Rosenfeld <rosenfeld.elie@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
Carl Singer <carl.singer@...> wrote
> Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they
> are an ovul {mourner}. I've heard this ascribed to the adage that a change in
> one's location (makom) brings about a change in one's fortune (mazal.)
> (1) are there any other reasons behind this minhag (and is it, in fact,
> "only" a minhag.)
> (2) a friend who is currently an ovul has changed his seat for weekday
> davening, but returns to his regular seat on Shabbos. I presume this is
> because one does not show signs of mourning on Shabbos. Do others know of this
> week-day, Shabbos differentiation in practice?
The latter was my own practice as well, when observing aveilus for my father
several years ago. This was both for the reason stated - not engaging in
public acts of mourning on Shabbos - as well as for a more personal reason:
changing my regular seat would make me very uneasy/uncomfortable, thus
significantly diminishing my enjoyment of Shabbos. This felt particularly
apt given that my aveilus was for my father, who had been extremely mapkid
[careful] never to take another's seat in shul.
Elie Rosenfeld - <rosenfeld.elie@...>
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From: Josh Backon <backon@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 22,2010 at 01:01 AM
Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
Carl Singer asked:
> Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they are
> an ovul {mourner}. I've heard this ascribed to the adage that a
> change in one's location (makom) brings about a change in one's fortune
>(mazal.)
> (1) are there any other reasons behind this minhag (and is it, in fact,
>"only" a minhag.)
The gemara in Moed Kattan (23a) indicates that a mourner, during the
2nd week of mourning, doesn't sit in his regular seat in shul; during the 3rd
week, he may sit in his regular seat but not engage in conversation; the 4th
week, he can sit in his regular seat (and engage in conversation).
This is the ruling in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 393:3 ("revi'it harei
hu k'she'ar kol adam"). However, the Rema there mentions the custom of not
sitting in one's regular seat during the entire sheloshim [30 day period] and
for one's parents the entire year EVEN THOUGH THE CUSTOM HAS NO BASIS
["v'ein l'minhag zeh ikar].
The upshot is that one does follow the custom.
As usual, the Aruch Hashulchan YD 393 gives the whole historical
background (393 # 11 and 12) and indeed does indicate that many customs changed
during the time of the RIVASH (1326-1408) a disciple of the RAN.
Incidentally, some of the commentaries (e.g. the ROSH) on the gemara
on that daf in Moed Kattan (23a) give some valuable historical insight on
mourning customs observed by leading scholars of the period.
Re: change in mazal: this is mentioned in the Tshuvot Shem m'Shimon YD 32.
Josh Backon
<backon@...>
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From: "Rabbi R. Bulka" <rabbibulka@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 22,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
Apropos the question-observation by Carl Singer (MJ 58#90), the change of seats
is for weekdays only, and probably more related to the sense of displacement
that relates to suffering a great loss.
It is equally correct not to change on Shabbat, as this would contravene the
general protocol of not manifesting mourning on Shabbat.
Prenthetically, this is an issue primarily if the place of prayer on Shabbat
is different from during the week, and thus a change is dramatically
noticeable. However, if the place of prayer is the same during the week and
on Shabbat, then there is no Shabbat implication since the seat is changed
for every day and is not a glaring Shabbat mourning display.
And after the end of the mourning period, the mourner returns to the "old
seat," which would not fit in with the "mazal" explanation.
Rabbi Reuven P. Bulka,
Congregation Machzikei Hadas,
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
> From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
> Date: Fri, Aug 20,2010 at 11:01 AM
> Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
>
> Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they
> are
> an ovul {mourner}. I've heard this ascribed to the adage that a change in
> one's
> location (makom) brings about a change in one's fortune (mazal.)
>
> (1) are there any other reasons behind this minhag (and is it, in fact,
> "only" a minhag.)
>
> (2) a friend who is currently an ovul has changed his seat for weekday
> davening, but returns to his regular seat on Shabbos. I presume this is
> because
> one does not show signs of mourning on Shabbos. Do others know of this
> week-day,
> Shabbos differentiation in practice?
>
> --
> Carl
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Haim Snyder <haimsny@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 22,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
In MJ 58#90, Carl Singer wrote:
>Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they
> are an ovul {mourner}. I've heard this ascribed to the adage that a
>change in one's location (makom) brings about a change in one's fortune
> (mazal.)
> (1) are there any other reasons behind this minhag (and is it, in fact,
> "only" a minhag.)
> (2) a friend who is currently an ovul has changed his seat for weekday
> davening, but returns to his regular seat on Shabbos. I presume this is
> because one does not show signs of mourning on Shabbos. Do others know of
> this week-day, Shabbos differentiation in practice?
According to the book "Mourning in Halacha" Chapter 27, the Shulhan Aruch in
393:2 (based on a baraisa in Mo'ed Katan) states: "In the second week [of
mourning], the mourner leaves his home, but does not sit in his regular
place [in the synagogue]. In the third week, he sits in his regular place,
but does not speak. If he prefers, in the third week he may continue not to
sit in his regular place, in which case he is permitted to speak. In the
fourth week, he [sits in his regular place and speaks] like anyone else." In
the same cite, the Rama states: "In our time, the custom is not to sit in
one's regular place for the entire shloshim - and in the case of mourning
for one's parent, for the entire twelve months. This custom has no
fundamental basis. Nevertheless, one should not change it, for every
community follows its own custom."
Further on in that chapter, he quotes the Shulhan Aruch in 393:4, "Some have
the custom, when in mourning, not to change their seat in the synagogue on
the Sabbath. [They sit in some other seat during the week, but in their
regular seat on the Sabbath.] They are to be commended.
Regards,
Haim Shalom Snyder
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sam Gamoran <SGamoran@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 22,2010 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Changing one's seat during availus
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 58#90)
> Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they are an
> ovul {mourner}.
I heard that this minhag is done so that people will see you in a different
place, understand that you are a mourner and console you.
Regards,
Sam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Changing one's seat during aveilus
Carl Singer ( Mail-Jewish 58#90) wrote:
> Many people have a minhag {custom} to move to a different seat when they are
> an ovul {mourner}. I've heard this ascribed to the adage that a change in one's
> location (makom) brings about a change in one's fortune (mazal.)
>
> (1) are there any other reasons behind this minhag (and is it, in fact,
> "only" a minhag.)
>
> (2) a friend who is currently an ovul has changed his seat for weekday
> davening, but returns to his regular seat on Shabbos. I presume this is because
> one does not show signs of mourning on Shabbos. Do others know of this week-day,
> Shabbos differentiation in practice?
This 'custom' of changing one's sea throughout the period of aveilus is brought by RMO in Shulchon Oruch YD 333:2
Whether the oveil should occupy his usual seat on Shabbos is a machlokes (difference of opinion) between Mechaber and RMO YD 333:4
'
Perets Mett
London
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 11:01 PM
Subject: How and When are MJ Digests produced?
The first lines of the latest MJ Digest read:
> Mail.Jewish Mailing List
> Volume 58 Number 90
> Produced: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:50:54 EDT
I noticed, and was surprised, that this seems to have been produced on Shabbos.
(There is no place in the Eastern time zone where Shabbos was already over today
at 5:51 PM.) And last week, MJ 58:69 was produced on Aug 14 at 6:36 PM, but
going back to April I haven't found any other cases.
My guess is that there is a new moderator somewhere in the Eastern Hemisphere,
who is doing these things remotely over the Internet after Shabbos is over, but
that the timestamp in Mail-Jewish says "EDT", because the computers are located
at Hebrew College in Massachusetts.
If so, then I'd like to thank this new moderator, whoever you are. (And
incidentally, I'd like to thank ALL the moderators for their involvement! And
thanks to all the members for the recent burst of interesting posts!) But if
there's a different explanation, I'm curious to know what's going on.
(My first thought was that the Digests are produced on some kind of automated
schedule, but if that were so, then the timestamp would have been much closer to
on-the-hour, like "18:00:02 EDT" or something.)
Akiva Miller
Moderator's reply:
Akiva is correct that some digests are not produced in the USA. The one he
refers to was in fact produced in the UK. I have had other people query other
such apparent breaches of Shabbat and rejected them on these grounds and the
assumption that one should always be melamed zechut [give people the benefit of
the best possible interpretation of their actions].
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Fay Berger <JuniperViv@...>
Date: Fri, Aug 20,2010 at 06:30 PM
Subject: Psalm 27
The "Shilo Prayer Book" "Shilo Publishing House,Inc." New York has
"L'Dovid" after "Shacharis' and "Mincha" from the first day of the
month of "Elul" till the day following "Shmini Atzeres."
I have heard the expression "farzogerke" used for the woman who knew
how to daven,who would daven in a louder voice, so the women,who didn't
know how to daven would follow. There is such a painting in one of the
Jewish Museums.
Fay Berger
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Elazar M. Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Psalm 27
Menashe Elyashiv wrote:
> Why do some say it after Minha instaed of Arvit? It seems to me, that the
> older practice was to say it at the end of the combinded Minha - Maariv,
> no Alenu or Kaddish said after Minha, rather from full Kaddish straight to
> Barhu. That was the usual way of praying. About 200 years ago, Minha and
> Maariv were seperated - and so became the two minhagim.
Chassidim generally avoid saying T'hillim at night. (I know this is Chabad
practice, and I believe this the practice of many other Chassidim) They
therefore say L'David Ori at Mincha. The same is true for Psalm 49, said in a
house of mourning after Shacharis and Ma'ariv, but by Chassidim, after Shacharis
and Mincha.
EMT
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Psalm 27
Carl Singer <carl.singer@...> wrote (Volume 58 Number 83):
> The ubiquitous Art Scroll siddur specifies that "from Rosh Chodesh Elul
> through Shemini Atzeres Psalm 27 .... is recited." (At the conclusion of
> Shacharis& Maariv.)
>
> The common Nusach haGrah siddur omit this.
>
> Any comments?
Although I am not familiar enough with nusach hagr"a to relate to this
posting specifically, I do know that the gr"a was against adding more
psalms to the tephilla except for the psalm of the day which was said by
the levi'im in the bet hamikdash [Levites in the Holy Temple]. Thus
"l'david hashem ori" is not likely to be printed in his siddur as this
is a later added minhag [custom].
David Ziants
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jeanette Friedman <FriedmanJ@...>
Date: Sat, Aug 21,2010 at 10:01 PM
Subject: to the males of this list.
Akiva Miller wrote:
> There are many Jewish things I do outside of services, some of which the
> women of my community do more prominently than the men. In fact, on our
> list of community functions (http://schedule.thejec.org/wklyschedpdf.pdf)
> I see 22 women listed, and only 8 men -- almost triple! Reading and writing
> to Mail-Jewish (and similar email lists) is no small part of the Jewish
> things that fill my day, and I don't think anyone can seriously argue that
> the MJ women are excluded or even merely tolerated; they are full and
> active members, totally equal to the men.
And many men on the list resent it like crazy. And the females of male list
jewish know exactly who they are. They give themselves away with
snarkiness. It is only in recent weeks that my posts have begun to reappear
with any regularity. I had been "effectively" banned by having most of the
posts I sent to the list rejected for my "tone." After more than 15 years on
this list, I must say that the last year has been particularly instructive on
how the chumrah of the month club also acts as a censor program when they
don't like what they see or hear.
OTOH, there are men on this list who WANT to understand, those who truly
don't get it but don't come from a malicious place, and guys who do get it
and are trying to do something about it.
And it's not just about the women, it's about certain attitudes in general
toward things like agunot, and disabled people, and people who are not
precisely, exactly like you, and toward the whole shadchan system.
For a decent Jewish world, things need to change in order to be fair and
compassionate. And you should excuse me, Ira, but you are not my posek, and
like I said, if you don't love yourself, how you gonna love anyone else?
Judaism is about charity, kindness and compassion. Read what the Rambam
says about Moshiach. He resides in us. There will not be miracles and
thunderstorms. Peace and prosperity will come when we treat each other with
respect. This translates into our behavior in the outside world. And trust me,
we are being watched and judged, not just by Hashem, but by our neighbors in
this world.
And when you create a Chillul Hashem by chaining women and calling them
sinners, by treating women generally as second class citizens, by forcing
marriages, by training generations of welfare cases, by ignoring mental illness
and putting a taboo on it while people in the uniform embezzle, commit sex
crimes without blinking, cheat on their spouses, mess around with schechita, etc
etc. they can read all about it, first thing every morning on the web and in
their dead tree editions.
Jewish leaders, some of whom are openly guilty of these crimes, do get
caught by their own stupidity -- even with their pants down and their hands in
the till, yet they remain in power as spokespeople for Jews or as powerful
pulpit rabbis, or Jewish organizational hacks. They operate out of the sight
of most of us, but what they do affects every single one of us and how we
are perceived by others.
Yet, try as they might they can't reach 80% of what's left of the Jews, so
you ought to ask yourself why -- and why in every sector of Judaism,
excepting the Orthodox world, women are becoming more involved in every single
aspect of the system -- save the top levels. There is still a glass ceiling and
they cannot break it. That's because the closer they get to see how the
decision making, power structure and establishment work, in all denominations
and sub-denominations, non-profit and political decision making groups like
UJA AIPAC, Norpac, etc. the more they speak up about how it needs to be
repaired.
And there is nothing more threatening to an entrenched insecure aging male
Jewish leader or Jewish professional, especially when jobs are scarce and
money is tight, than a smart, mouthy Jewish woman who knows how to get
things done efficiently, fairly, and compassionately. Women are seen by such
men as threats. We are dangerous. We are Liliths, Witches! As someone on this
list posted, I forget who, the mere mention of our female names sends some
of them into paroxysms of sexual frenzy. Just to see a female name in print
is a sin! (WHO THINKS THIS STUFF UP?! -- the other one that got me was the
stuff about newlyweds not having friends over on Shabbos because they might
play "swapsies." What is the matter with you people?)
So if anyone cares about bringing Next-Gen and their future chilldren back
to Judaism and Israel, your leaders are going to have to do much better
than they are doing. And that includes your local rabbis. Xenophobia,
arrogance, pride, stubborness, superiority, hate speech and snarkiness just
don't work.
And the way to influence your leaders is to tell them how you and the women
in your life, as well as those in your family who are disabled in some way
or another, feel about issues that effect all of us, especially when
people are looking in from the outside -- and deciding whether or not we deserve
their assistance, empathy and friendship.
.
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End of Volume 58 Issue 91