Volume 6 Number 28
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Atlanta, GA
[Richard Schultz]
B'rachah on Procreation
[Warren Burstein]
Bracha on Procreation
[Aryeh Frimer]
Chadash
[David Kramer]
Chadoah
[Yosef Bechhofer]
Day School Curricula
[Joel Seiferas]
Looking for a Story in the Gemara
[Avi Bloch]
Minhagim re second marriage
[David Sherman]
Right-handedness in Halacha
[Ben Pashkoff]
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From: <schultz@...> (Richard Schultz)
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 93 09:26:55 -0800
Subject: Atlanta, GA
I am going to be in Atlanta for a conference the week of March 8th (i.e.
the day after Purim). Does anyone out there know of any shuls near the
convention center, what and where the kosher dining places are, and whom
(if anyone) to contact about the possibility of hospitalitiy the
following Shabbat (March 12/13)? Thanks.
Richard Schultz
<schultz@...>
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From: warren (Warren Burstein)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 22:54:19 -0500
Subject: Re: B'rachah on Procreation
>I think that Freda Birnbaum was closer to the mark than some of the
>respondents think. While it may be true that the Sheva B'rachot (the
>seven wedding blessings) make no explicit mention of procreation,
>nevertheless they immediately precede the most important moment of the
>Nisu'in (wedding) itself which is yichud (unchaperoned private time for
>the bride and groom). And the intimacy which we now allow only
>symbolically was originally quite real.
>[Is this correct? Does not jive with my memories of the Gemarah? Are you
>referring to an even earlier period? Any hints as to sources? Mod.]
What I recall is that the chuppah was a tent, in which the bride and
groom lived together (for the first night? for the first week?),
although I don't know if it was after the wedding feast rather than
before. I don't recall a source for this either. But I understood
that the statement about "everyone knows why the groom takes the bride
to the chuppah" meant that it was clear what was going on in there,
although one ought not to refer to it directly.
Perhaps the yichud room was substituted for the convinience of the
photographer? Because too many practical jokes were being played on
people in tents?
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From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 04:11:30 -0500
Subject: Re: B'rachah on Procreation
Firstly, I'd like to thank Daniel Siegel for his compliment. My
goal was not to underestimate the role of procreation, but rather to
make it clear that it is not the end all and be all of marriage -
neither in the view of Hazal or the Halacha as codified in the Poskim.
While Daniel is correct that Yihud must theoretically be of a duration
long enough to permit sexual consumation - it by no means suggests that
this act must also be one that could lead to procreation. Thus Yihud is
effective for women who are sterile, on the pill, pregnant, nursing,
after menopause etc. I think that Judaism, through the mitzva of Onah,
makes it emminently clear that sex per se' is permitted, nay obligated,
within a marriage framework - and has importance in and of itself -
even if it will not lead to procreation. Remember also that Onah requir
es a husband not only to sleep with his wife a minimal number of times
(quantity) but also to give her sexual pleasure (quality). (The famous
responsa of Rav Moshe permitting a Groom to read sex manuals just prior
to marriage so that he could sexually satisfy his wife - is relavent and
suprisingly modern). Onah obligates a husband to sleep with his wife
even if she is sterile, pregnant etc. I reiterate my basic argument,
that the fact that there is not even a hint of procreation in the Sheva
Brachot - which is supposed to sum up the message to the Jewish Bride
and Groom - that procreation is NOT the CENTRAL element in marriage.
The Chumash does not say that Eve was created so that Adam could
procreate - but rather to be his life partner. Marriage is about
sharing: experiences happy and sad, the pleasures of lovemaking, growing
together - or in the words of Hazal: Ahava Achva Shalom ve-Reut - Love,
friendship, peace and companionship. Not to mention Gila, rina, ditza
and Cheva - boundless Joy.
Daniel, having raised 4 children - let me tell you - that
doesn't sound like procreation to me!
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From: <davidk@...> (David Kramer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 04:10:21 -0500
Subject: Chadash
In m.j V6#25 Boruch Kogan says:
> I don't understand, since when is the fact that "many frum Jews" do or
> don't do something in a certain way is a criterion in halocho?!
Since a very long time ago!! Rishonim do it all the time - especially
the Baalai Tosafot - in many many places. For an example you have to
look no further than the first Daf (page) in the Talmud where the
Tosafot rationalize the wide practice of reading 'Kriyat Shma' before
nightfall. (I seem to remember a friend of mine telling me that R. Dr.
Chaim Soloveitchik - the Rav's son - has a paper on this trend of the
Baalai Hatosafot. Anyone know if it is published anywhere?)
> The majority can be wrong too.
But one has to have very big shoulders (or alot of chutzpa) to claim
that the very big Talmidai Chachamim who eat 'Chadash' today and did in
the previous generations (even when they did not sell beer) are wrong
too!!!
[ David Kramer | INTERNET: <davidk@...> ]
[ Motorola Communications Israel Ltd. | Phone (972-3) 565-8638 Fax 565-8754 ]
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From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 02:15:13 -0500
Subject: Chadash
While I understand that a Minhag cannot define Halacha
definitively, as discussed in Michtav Me'Eliyahu vol. 4 p. 56, I am
curious as to what Baruch Kogan's interpretation of the Gemara in
Pesachim 66a concerning Hillel and Bnei Beseira and the bringing of a
Shechita knife to the Azara on the basis of Minhag Yisroel might be. Do
we not see that patterns of Halachic observance can be occasionally
deduced from the workings of Hashgacha?
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From: <joel@...> (Joel Seiferas)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 22:43:50 -0500
Subject: Day School Curricula
Last April I posted the following query on the news group
soc.culture.jewish:
``Does anyone have any hints where I might be able to find
written summaries or outlines of curricula (that are actually in use)
for K-8 Jewish day schools? We have had such a day school in
Rochester for about 45 years; but neither our curriculum nor others we
know about seems to have a written form. Of course there are standard
state materials for secular studies; but, for Jewish studies and
integrated studies (if there is such a thing), the tradition seems to
be entirely oral. (I am a lay member of the school's Education
Committee.)''
There was very little promising response, but now I am on a
subcommittee actually charged with collecting and making use of
whatever we can. Can anyone on this mailing list help?
Joel Seiferas
<joel@...>
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From: <avi@...> (Avi Bloch)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 11:02:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Looking for a Story in the Gemara
I had previously posted the following request:
> I'm looking for a story in the gemara about a rabbi who hid under his
> rebbe's bed, while the latter was having sexual relations with his
> wife. When the rebbe found out and confronted his student, he claimed
> that this too is torah and he has to learn it.
>
> Pointers, anyone?
I received several answers and I want to thank again all those that
replied. To summarize, the story I was looking for is in Berachot 62a
following several stories about rabbis who followed their teachers into
the bathroom to learn from their behavior. This story (which is a later
one than the others, the others are about tana'im and this one is about
amora'im) goes as follows: (my translation) Rav Kahana hid under the bed
of Rav Shemaya while he was talking and joking and doing his needs.
(Rashi: having sex). He (Rav Kahana) said to him (or of him) "It's as if
Abba's mouth has never eaten." (Rashi: that you never had sex before
that you behave with such light-headedness for your pleasure.) He (Rav
Shemaya) said to him, "Kahana, you are here? Get out because it is not
proper." He said, "This is Torah and I have to learn."
The same story is brought is Chagiga 5b, in a different context and
therefore does not have the ending brought here. The discussion there is
about having idle conversation with a woman. The gemara quotes Rav as
saying, "Even unneeded talk between a man and his wife, a person is told
about it at his death." To refute this the above story is brought (until
Rav Shemaya throws Rav Kahana out) and then explains that there is
difference, that there he wanted to endear (leratzot) his wife and here
(with Rav) that is not the case.
Just thought someone out there might also be interested in the story.
Avi Bloch
<avi@...>
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From: <dave@...> (David Sherman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 01:51:43 -0500
Subject: Minhagim re second marriage
A friend of mine (who doesn't have access to the net at the moment) was
recently engaged and will be getting married in a couple of months.
It's a second marriage for both; both were previously divorced and both
have children. They are both Lubavitchers.
Are there any minhagim for second marriages? For a first marriage there
are all kinds of things, of course, such as she-buys-him (what is it--a
kittel, a shas and a tallis?). But what about a second marriage?
David Sherman
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From: <BEN@...> (Ben Pashkoff)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 10:18:16 -0500
Subject: Right-handedness in Halacha
This past Shabbat when the Sefer Tora was wrapped, the person holding it
wanted to put it on his left shoulder. Immediately he was told no, on
the right. This got me to thinking about how often there is a preference
for Right over Left in minhag.
Examples that come to mind:
* Tefilin (for those of you not born Left-Handed!)
* When the Kohenim turn durn Birkat Kohanim
* The direction of Hakafot
* The direction of the procession of the tora
1) Does anyone have other clear examples?
2) Does anyone have any sources for this?
Thanks,
| Ben Pashkoff <BEN@...> |
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End of Volume 6 Issue 28
