Volume 6 Number 50

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Kedusha or Kedosha (6)
         [Benjamin Svetitsky, Nicolas Rebibo, David Rosenstark, Elhanan
Adler, Avi Bloch, Nachum Issur Babkoff]
Visiting Germany, Amsterdam, Seattle
         [Manny Lehman]


From: Benjamin Svetitsky <FNBENJ@...>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 08:56:52 -0500
Subject: Kedusha or Kedosha

Elliot Lasson asked about:
"... be-safa b'rura uvine'ima, kedusha kulam ke-echad 'onim ve-omrim
be-yira ..."

If you put the comma where I put it above, you take kedusha to be a noun.
Translations I have seen say  something like: ... in a clear tongue and
with melody, they all, united, say the Kedushah with awe ..."  and so
kedusha specifically refers to the three-fold kadosh said by the angels
in the next line of the tefillah.

Does anybody know when the three-fold kedushah got its name?

Anyhow, the Litvak places I've prayed in put the comma AFTER kedosha,
as Mr. Lasson indicates, so that kedOsha (note the O) is an adjective
modifying ne'ima.  I think the Chabad siddur does the same.

Ben Svetitsky

From: rebibo%<cesar@...> (Nicolas Rebibo)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 14:14:18 GMT
Subject: Kedusha or Kedosha

In mj v6n47 Elliot Lasson wrote

> l'hakdish l'yotzram b'nachat ruach b'safah brurah u'ven'emah kedusha
>                                                              ^^^^^^^

I do say kedosha as it is in my daily prayer book (Sepharad minhag) .  I
suspect here a difference between Sepharad and Ashkenaz minhagim. I had
a look at different Sidurim used by the Sepharad community in France and
found the two different versions. Nevertheless the more common version
seems to be the kedosha one.

The following books had the kedosha version (translation = holy sweetness):
  - Tefilat Bne Tsion
  - Tefilat Shalom (hebrew text from the Seder Hatefilot published by the
                    Union of Sepharadic Congregation)
  - Tefilat Yeshurun
  - Pata'h Eliyahu  (a footnote says that a version with kedusha is also

The following books had the kedusha version (translation = His holiness):
  - Tefilat Yesharim
  - Shaarey Tsion

Nicolas Rebibo
Internet: <rebibo@...>

From: <davidr@...> (David Rosenstark)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 08:28:39 -0500
Subject:  Kedusha or Kedosha

Although I do not have it with me, the be'er heiteiv points out that
this kedosha rather than kedusha is the correct pronounciation (it is in
hilchos krias shema -- chelek aleph of the mishna berura).
Additionally, the Birnbaum siddur has it as kedosha (i.e as a
modification of uvinima).  You raise an interesting point which has more
ramifications. Is there any validity to the masorah of the siddur? I
have a friend who insists on saying "yisgadal veyiskadash" rather than
the pronounciation expressed by the Mishna Berurah of yisgadeil
veyiskadeish because he claims that one cannot find a siddur with those
vowels and indeed there is the concept of masorah in the siddur.

-David Rosenstark (<davidr@...>)

From: <ELHANAN@...> (Elhanan Adler)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 93 02:07:56 -0500
Subject: Kedusha or Kedosha

Shlomo Tal, the editor of Siddur Rinat Yisrael wrote a book called
ha-siddur be-hishtalsheluto (Jerusalem, 1985). Part of this book
consists of questions he was asked regarding the nusach in Rinat
Yisrael, including the kedushah/kedoshah question. He lists many poskim
who prefer kedoshah - from the Avudarham and Abarbanel down to the Baer
Hetev and Pri Hadash. This is also the nusach he selected for Rinat
Yisrael *nusach sefarad*. He states that he left the kedushah form in
the nusach ashkenaz version because that is the form which appears in
the majority of nusach ashkenaz siddurim.

He also notes that the Yemenite version is bi-ne'imah *tehorah* -
clearly an adjective.

* Elhanan Adler                   University of Haifa Library              *
* Mt. Carmel, Haifa 31905, Israel Tel.: 972-4-240535  FAX: 972-4-257753    *
* Israeli U. DECNET:      HAIFAL::ELHANAN                                  *
* Internet/ILAN:          <ELHANAN@...>                          *

From: <avi@...> (Avi Bloch)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 21:33:24 +0200
Subject: Re: Kedusha or Kedosha

In Vol. 6 #47, Elliot Lasson discusses the two possibilities for the vowels
in a word which is part of Birchot Kriah Shma. He concludes in saying:

> Could this be a misprint which has been erroneously perpetuated in the
> siddurim?  In my opinion, that is what seems to have been the case.

I don't know about the other siddurim he quoted, but Yisrael Tal, the
editor of Rinat Yisrael, went to great lengths in order to find the
correct nusach and such a claim should not be made, in my opinion,
without further investigation.

Furthermore, in Rinat Yisarel nusach sephard, he uses the version that
Elliot thinks is the correct one. So, he knew about the other
possibility and still decided that this was the correct nusach for

In regards to Elliot's comments on the accepted nusach:

1. The order of the words should be different - This is many times the
   case in such tefilot. Just look at the following bracha, "Ahava raba
   ahavtanu," You have loved us a great love. Shouldn't that be,
   "Ahavtanu ahava raba"?

2. The word should be kedushato - This is true only according to the
   Artscroll translation, which, as all translations, is also an
   interpretation. But in fact what is about to be said is kedusha, just
   like Elliot said in his first paragraph:

>                                              In the Kedushah which we
> recite as part of the Birchot Kriah Shma (in Shacharit)

In conclusion, I don't think there's anything wrong with the accepted
nusach. And while I don't think everything is perfect in our siddurim, I
wouldn't be so quick in proclaiming a "printer's error" until I was
really convinced of the fact.

May our prayers, whatever their nusach, always be answered.

Avi Bloch

From: <babkoff@...> (Nachum Issur Babkoff)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 09:55:35 +0200
Subject: Re: Kedusha or Kedosha

Elliot Lasson writes, that in his opinion, if one were to accept the
Art-Scroll version of the "k'dusha" in "birchot k'riat sh'ma", then the
proper form should be "k'dushato". I fail to understand why.  The first
point worth noting, is that in all the translations he brought,
including the Avudraham, the term "ne'ima" is understood as sweetness.
The truth is that in hebrew the term also refers to MUSIC! Therefore,
the sentence should be read and understood:"in clear and musical
language". In hebrew, that form is not uncommon.  Next, the following
part should be read (all this of course refers to those amongst us who
don't follow the Avudrahams "nosach" - version), as saying: "...,
k'dusha kulam k'echad onim - [they] all answer with THE k'dusha -
v'omrim - saying, kadosh kadosh kadosh...etc.". In other words, the term
"omrim" is a prelude to the "kadosh kadosh kadosh", and not part of the
previous phrases! (I owe that understanding to R. Aryeh Frimer, who
called the attention of our cong. to those common mis-readings in the
siddur. This question too is dealt with by R. Baruch Epstein in his
autobiography "Makor Baruch", in a chapter titled "shgi'ot mi yavin", or
something of that nature).  In other words the term "k'dusha" refers to
THE k'dusha, which is saying three times "kadosh kadosh kadosh".
                         Nachum Issur Babkoff


From: Manny Lehman <mml@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 08:19:47 -0500
Subject: Visiting Germany, Amsterdam, Seattle

re Howie Pielet's query, I have to visit Germany frequently, always wear my
Kippah at the airport, in the street, in the Hotel lobby and at meetings.
So far, b'h I've had no problems. Its no great pleasure to visit G., I make
a point of never speaking German or admitting to understanding - though of
course I am fluent - which, I suppose is my way of expressing my feelings
about the country and its people. On the other hand I must admit to having
had some very positive discussions with younger Germans, both over there,
at Imperial where we have German students from time to time and at
Conferences and have found them most positive, critical of the German past
and determined that it should not happen again.

I have never been to Dusseldorf except to drive from and to the airport for
a meeting in Aachen but according to the Jewish Chronicle Travel Guide
(which should be available in the States, try your friendly local Jewish
bookdealer). The guide gives the local Rabbi as R. Abraham Hochwqald,
Kaiserswerther Str. 105, (o211) 49 24 12. There appears to be no Kosher
restaurant but a Hotel under Jewish ownership without Hashgachah

Re Michael Scholar's friend's visit to Amsterdam a telephone call to my
cousin Osher Lehmann on 718 258 4289 (Flatbush, NY) should get you all the
information about Jewish Amsterdam you might wish.

re Seattle I suggest a telephone call to Ben Genauer at 617 481 17774 or
office 206 624 5351 or to Eli Genauer at 206 722 9722 will get you all the
information you need. I called Ben (from London, having found his name as
Hospitality Chairman for Seattle in the Jewish Chronicle Travel Guide) and
immediately received a most generous invitation to spend Shabbat with them
- which I duly did, (albeit some 7 years ago). Dan, if you go there and
meet them please give them my regards though I can, of course, not be sure
that they are still around. Please let me know how you get on. Again note
that the Jewish Chronicle Travel Guide will give you all the information
about Jewish Seattle (or any where else) that you could possibly need. It
is, indeed a very nice Jewish community. Orthodox Syn. 5145 S. Morgan St.
98118, 206 723 0970, Yeshivah Gedola of Seattle, 5220 20th Ave N E, 98105
206 527 1100. and lots more. I'm on the way to the airport and cannot
tarry.. Seattle Kasahruth Board 5145 Morgan St 98118,. Seek there advice re
Kosher hotels/catering the list is too long for me to copy now, or contact
me latter in the week.. There is also a list of stores stocking Kosher
food. Chabad house runs a Kosher restaurant "Kosher Delight",  at 1509 1st
Ave. 206 624 4555. Lots more but I must run.

Best wishes and Derech Z'lechah to all of you.

Prof. M M (Manny) Lehman
Department of Computing, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine
London SW7 2BZ, UK., Phone: +44 (0)71 589 5111, ext. 5009
Fax.:  +44 (0)71 581 8024
email: <mml@...>


End of Volume 6 Issue 50