Volume 6 Number 69

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Hot Water on Shabbat
         [B Lehman]
         [Danny Skaist]
Jews in Sports
         [Henry Abramson]
Judaism and Lesbianism
         [Nachum Issur Babkoff]
Nusach Hatefila
         [Yehoshua Steinberg]
Order of Battle
         [Sam Goldish]
Rav Ovadia Yosef's Siddur
         [Yosef Branse]
Solar Water Heaters
         [Danny Skaist]


From: <BLEHMAN@...> (B Lehman)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 07:42:53 -0500
Subject: RE: Hot Water on Shabbat

 I would like to make several general points on this issue.
I get the feeling that we are getting too involved with the minor issues and
forgetting the major ones.

1) It does not make too much of a difference to the issue if we are talking
about solar or electrical heaters, as the bottom line is that the cold water
comes into contact with hot water and does go past the point of "YAD SOLEDET".
   (electrical heaters just add their own complications)

2) There are several solutions to all the problems. Some involve doing various
pre Shabat preparations. But we are all human and we all can and do forget.
(how many of us just leave the bulb out of the fridge after we forgot b-4 
Shabat to.... and.....) And when we forget to do the pre Shabat preparations,
then we could just as well forget that we forgot and .....

3) This is a classic case of "MARIT AYIN" Ie. what I know doesn't mean that
all know. All of us have visitors, and if I have a halachikly legal trick to
get around a problem, Joe Visitor who does not always know all the finer 
points of halacha will assume that hot water (eg) on Shabat is fine.  
   A variation on the above theme is my kids will grow up in a "ok hot water
on Shabat" environment, but when I disapear for a month for army service,
will my kids know or understand or remember what to do ?.

4a) As far as I can see, the way out is; either do one of these various changes
to the boiler system but you got to do it all the way, ie. from the boiler all
the way down to the "special Shabat tap".
 or... wait till (if) there is a generally available, known, "SHABAT BOILER"  
for example the Shabat boilers for drinking water installed in Shaaray Tzedek
hospital. (and even in this case I think a special heter was given as we are
dealing with a hospital.)

4b)In other words we must not make haklachik compromises that will cause future
generations not knowing a problem exists.


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 04:58:25 -0500
Subject:  Interest

>David Cohen
>                       I understand that interest may not be collected
>on loans made to fellow Jews.  Does this mean that banking within the
>Jewish community is prohibited?

Displayed somewhere in every branch of every bank in Israel is the
"Heter Ischa" (permission to do business?) written by Chief Rabbi Harav
Kook.  It does not follow the formula given in the gemorra but is based
on the fact that the bank as shomer (guardian ?) is required to give you
a complete accounting (under oath) of exactly what they did with every
penny of your money while in their posession.  They are willing to pay
the customers cash instead of the accounting and as such do not pay
interest on deposits.



From: Henry Abramson <abramson@...>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 14:25:20 -0500
Subject: Jews in Sports

Avi Hyman recently asked about the halakhic ramifications and historical
attitude to Jews in sports.  Wasn't that one of the issues during the
Hasmonean era, when budding Jewish atheletes wanted to imitate the uniform
_de rigeur_ of Hellenic society (i.e. stark naked), and went even further
by trying to surgically alter the brit to look more stylish?  I have no
sources on this, only a vague recollection (or was that _Europa, Europa_?)

Henry Abramson             <abramson@...>
University of Toronto


From: <babkoff@...> (Nachum Issur Babkoff)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 17:54:40 +0200
Subject: Judaism and Lesbianism

I don't want to "split hairs" here with Mechael, but in his submission
he claimed that the prohibition against lesbianism was a "lav" - a
negative Torah prohibition.

To the best of my knowledge (I checked this out with my father just to
make sure), the prohibition is not a Torah "lav", it is a RABBINIC
prohibition. The difference being that according to Mechael, the
punishment would be the obligatory 39 lashes imposed by the courts,
whereas if it were a Rabbinic prohibition, the punishment would be
discretionary (if at all), and in any event without the other
"stigma's" attached to one who violates a Torah Prohibition.

There's another point worth noting, although I'm fairly sure that
Mechael is aware of this. He says that male homosexuality carries the
death sentense. That, to the best of my knowledge, is not always true
either! I seem to remember that only a specific type of sexual
behavior between two (or more) males, actualy carries the obligatory,
Torah perscribed death penalty. Any other type of behavior would fall
into the catagory of a "lav" or even Rabbinic prohibition.

I checked out the female homosexuality issue some more, and I found
the following:

The Hallacha prohibiting female homosexuality appears in the Rambam,
Yad Ha'chazaka, "Issurei Bi'ah"-prohibited sexual relations- Chap. 21.
There the Rambam clearly states that the prohibition is Rabbinic in
nature, and in fact ADVISES the courts to impose the RABBINIC
perscribed lashes, when such cases come before them.

It is also clear from that chapter as well as from chap.1, that not
all types of male homosexual behavior, carry the MANDATORY death
penalty perscribed in the Torah.

Another point, is that Mechael is correct that it is a "Toevah" for
the purpose of textual exigesis, but not "toevat mitsrayim", rather
"toevat ha'amim".

Finaly, there is an excellent article by R. N. Lamm, which appears in
the Encyclopedia Judaica 1974 Year Book, and was reprinted in 
"Jewish Bioethics" (mentioned by Mechael peviously concerning surrogate
motherhood), where the author brings not only the sources, but
attempts to deal with the entire issue of Judaism's outlook on the
issue of homosexuality in general, as far as Hallachic attitudes, as
well as social-public policy attitude (Jewish). I can't recall the
name of the article off-hand, but it's something to the order of
"Judaism and The Modern Outlook On Homosexuality". 

                            Nachum Issur Babkoff


From: <steinbrg@...> (Yehoshua Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Nusach Hatefila

<schiff@...> (Jeremy Schiff) writes:

>1. The siddur "Olat Reiyah" of Rav Kook has an interesting comma
>   in the first of the bircot kriyat shema of maariv; he has
>   "Kel chai vekayam tamid , yimloch alenu leolam vaed"
>                           ^
>   ("The living and always present G-d, he will rule over us for ever")
>   as opposed to the usual 
>   "Kel chai vekayam , tamid yimloch alenu leolam vaed"
>                     ^
>   ("The living and present G-d, he will always rule over us for ever")
>   The Rav Kook version makes good sense; why should we say that
>   Hashem will rule over us both "tamid" and "leolam vaed"?

See the _Perisha_ commentary on Tur O.C. 236, who in fact says that
the comma is inserted after _tamid_. Likewise, in the blessing
_Yir'u Eineinu_ (recited in the Diaspora after the evening _Shema_),
the blessing is phrased _hamelech bechevodo tamid, yimloch aleinu_...
The Magen Avraham (Sh. Ar. 236:1), quoting a certain sefer "Emek
Beracha" (concerning whether the phrase should be recited at all
since it doesn't appear to be directly connected to the concluding
blessing of the paragraph), quotes the five words together: _tamid
yimloch aleinu le'olam va'ed_. I believe I saw an explanation in
the _Machzor Vitri_ to support this phrasing (i.e. that _tamid_ 
and _le'olam va'ed_ have different connotations.

Yehoshua Steinberg


From: Sam Goldish <0005891269@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 06:10:18 -0500
Subject: Order of Battle

Many years ago I attended a "parlor meeting" in Cleveland held on behalf
of Ezras Torah.  The guest speaker was HaRav Dovid Singer, shlit"a, who
quoted from memory a rather lengthy passage describing how each of four
kings of Israel would prepare for battle.  Perhaps it was from a
midrash.  Could someone please identify the source and whether it is
available with accompanying English translation?  Thank you.

Sam Goldish
3830 South St. Louis Ave.
Tulsa, Oklahoma  74105


From: <JODY@...> (Yosef Branse)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 03:57:52 -0500
Subject: Rav Ovadia Yosef's Siddur

In MJ 6/62, Jerry Altzman refers to the Sefardi siddur of Rav Ovadia
Yosef.  There are a number of copies of this in our shul, entitled
"Siddur Chazon Ovadia Hashalem", published in 5750 (1989-90). But it
does not seem to match the details he cites. First of all, the cover is
plain white - though I recall seeing a version with the aron kodesh
Jerry mentions. The publisher of this edition is not "Yeshiva Or
Vaderech," but "Yeshiva Chazon Ovadia".

Yosef (Jody) Branse   University of Haifa Library  <JODY@...>  


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 04:58:25 -0500
Subject:  Solar Water Heaters

>From: Yisrael Sundick
>Shmirat Shabbat Kehilchatah says solar water haters are allowed on Shabbat?

Yes and No.
In the first version of the book he says it is allowed, but some people
don't permit it.
In the second version (the one with the alef on the back of the binder) he
says it isn't allowed, but many people permit it.

My LOR was very upset at this retreat, since it didn't come with any new
ideas or a retractions, (he used the identical sources) just what appeared
to be outside "pressure".


End of Volume 6 Issue 69