Volume 60 Number 34 
      Produced: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:24:33 EDT

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Accommodation of minhagim 
    [David Ziants]
    [David Tzohar]
Davening without talis and tefilin (3)
    [Orrin Tilevitz  Chaim Casper  Avy Dachman]
Facing the Temple Mount in Prayer 
    [David Ziants]
Is Bone Charcoal from Prohibited Animals Suitable for Use in Kosher Co 
    [Keith Bierman]
Ledabber bam 
    [Mark Steiner]
New Zealand 
    [David Ziants]
The Mitzvah of Zro'ah, Lechayayim veKeivah 
    [David Tzohar]
Tzedakah (3)
    [Carl Singer  Martin Stern  Martin Stern]
Where will it end? 
    [Shmuel Himelstein]
Who starts the davening 
    [Carl Singer]
Zilberman customs 
    [David Ziants]


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Accommodation of minhagim

Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>  wrote (MJ 60#29):

> Here, in Israel, we have the greatest Kibbutz Galuyot ("Ingathering of the
> Exiles"). It would be interesting to see how different "mixed" Minyanim
> accommodate the various customs of the groups comprising the Minyan.
> I, for example, often Daven in a Minyan made up primarily of 
> Ashkenazim, who are further divided into Nusach Ashkenaz and Nusach
> Sefarad. The general rule is that the Chazan determines the Nusach for
> that prayer. I nevertheless found three divergences from that rule:
> a)     Regardless who the Chazan is, the Hagbahah is after the Torah 
> reading - even  though Edot Mizrach have it before the Torah reading.
> b)    On Shabbat, the Shir shel Yom is recited after Shacharit, even 
> though the Ashkenazic practice is to say it after Musaf.
> c)     On those days of the week upon which there is no Torah reading at
> Shacharit, regardless of who the Chazan is, the Thirteen Middot are 
> recited before Tachanun. The Ashkenazic custom in Israel is to recite these 
> only on Mondays and Thursdays.

Although the Sephardim (Aidot HaMizrach) have there own shuls, many of 
the Ashkenazi shuls where I live operate in this fashion that the custom 
goes according to the shaliach tzibur [the one who leads].

a) Hagbaa before K. haTora is an aidot hamizrach thing although I have 
seen chassidim do it as well. With all the Ashkenazi shuls here, they do 
it afterwards. I did once see a shul in a small yishuv [township] that 
had also to accommodate aidot hamizrach - always do hagbaa twice. BTW - 
sephardim always get confused with an ashkenazi style rollable sepher 
tora as they do not have a formal gellila.

b) A through and through nusach ashkenaz shul (nusach sepharad is not 
allowed there) in a different neighbourhood to where I now live still do 
shir shel yom (or special psalm instead if Rosh Chodesh, Yom Tov etc.) 
after shacharit - thus giving kaddish sayers a kaddish then as there 
might not always be a minyan right at the beginning. Very rarely have I 
seen an ashkenazi  shul in Israel do so after Musaph, even though  it is 
printed that way in Rinat Yisrael siddur.

The mixed nusach ashkenazi shuls that I have contact with always say 
it after Shacharit.

They do not tend to encourage the special psalm instead of standard but 
only the standard - if Yom Tov etc. They do say two psalms on Rosh 
Chodesh, as was done in chu"l.

Similarly l'David H' Ori in Elul being said either at mincha or arvit 
has to be fixed for the community despite who the sha"tz is, otherwise 
some days it might be said at both and some days not at all in one of these 
two services.

c) If sha"tz says 13Midot on a day other than Mon and Thurs then everyone says 
it; if he doesn't, it is not said (although some people might say the 
viddui privately). There is (in my opinion unfortunately) a trend by a 
few people in some of the "mixed" shuls for nusach ashkenaz not to say 
even on Monday and Thursday. This is being propagated by influential 
elements who feel that the idea that nusach ashkenaz have to follow the 
gr"a in Israel is a mistaken one and we should revert back to the chu"l 

An issue that annoys me a lot - sephardim who say kaddish in an 
ashkenazi shul and whereas, at the end, only one of the mourners (or 
kaddish sayers) makes the end barchu - always insist that they all must 
do it as this is the way it happens in their shul. Thus another 
ashkenazi chiyuv [a kaddish sayer for a parent], who should have priority 
in this, does not get his chance.

In addition to the above replies to Shmuel Himelstein's points, nuances 
are generally tolerated in the repetition of Amida for example with an Aidot 
HaMizrach sha"tz. I have not yet heard a Taimani lead in my shul 
according to his text and do know the reaction if this should happen. I do 
not know if it would be tolerated if someone tried doing repetition 
according to a siddur pulled out of the Cairo Geniza and based on the 
Talmud Yerushalmi - like a newish movement called "Machon Shilo" are 
trying to spread. At the local Carlebach minyan, this is tolerated for 
the person saying b'rachot for Torah or Haphtara - but this is not 
relevant for sha"tz as they insist on Nusach Sepharad.

David Ziants


From: David Tzohar <davidtzohar@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 3,2011 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Anonymity

Anonymity is one of the scourges of the internet. Anyone can publish his
opinion (including things that are totally lashon hara and motzi shem ra)
without taking any responsibility for what he writes. A source for this is
the Rabbinic dictum "Hamayvi davar beshem omro mayvi geulah leolam" (He who
brings a quote in the  name of he who said it brings salvation to the world).
I would add how much more so if the one you are quoting is yourself!

David Tzohar


From: Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 2,2011 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Davening without talis and tefilin

Stuart Wise writes (MJ 60#33):

> Today in shul there was a short debate over whether we should wait to put on
> tefillin two minutes at Boruch She'amar (nusach sefard) or go straight through
> the zman and put them on before yishtabach.

I am not sure what you are talking about. At the hashkama nusach sefard minyan at 
which I daven periodically, when the zeman gets late enough they start davening 
about 15 minutes before the zeman tefilllin. Everybody but the shatz finishes 
yishtabach and then puts on tefillin; the shatz puts on tefillin and then says 
yishtabach. They put on tefillin before baruch she-amar only on the few days when 
the zeman hits at that point.

From: Chaim Casper <surfflorist@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 12:01 AM
Subject: Davening without talis and tefilin

Stuart Wise (MJ 60#33) raised the question of davening shaharit in the early 
hours of
the morning:

> It's that time of year again when early minyan goers are faced with the
> time for talis and tefilin getting late enough that we start davening
> without them on. Today in shul there was a short debate over whether we should
> wait to put on tefillin two minutes at Boruch She'amar (nusach sefard) or go
> straight through the zman and put them on before yishtabach. The person in
> charge of the minyan said the latter but one person complained and said we
> should wait the two minutes.  Then he made a curious statement when he met
> resistance: OK, the sin will be on your head (presumably for people not
> putting on tefilin at the moment it is permitted).

I cannot address the issue of "the sin," but I can point out that both the
Mishneh Brurah and the Arukh Hashulkhan allow you b'di'avad to put on tallit
and tefilin (t&t) after alot (about 60-72 minutes before hanetz/sunrise) which
is before mi'she'yakir (the earliest preferred time to make the brakhah of
t&t).   And, in fact, the Ezrat Torah luah that many of us use quotes this
ruling.   Rav Moshe, zt"l added that if one is in such a situation, one
could put on the t&t before alot and make the brakhah before yishtabah which
would be after misheyakir.   His reasoning is that the issue is when are
we allowed to make the brakhah?   There is no problem putting on t&t at
night; there is only a problem of making a brakhah.   So long as we make the
brakhah after alot (or even wait where possible to after misheyakir) we have
made the brakhah in a permissible manor.

Among the men that I daven with, there are those who are uncomfortable with
Rav Moshe's p'sak so they hold off putting on t&t until after misheyakir.
Tavo aleihem brakhah.      But most of my mitpallelim accept my
understanding of Rav Moshe's psak.   So they put on their t&t without a
brakhah and wait for my announcement prior to yishtabah.

B'virkat Torah,
Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL

From: Avy Dachman <adachman@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Davening without talis and tefilin

Common practice is to put on tallis and tefelin without a bracha and
when the proper zman arrives (at the proper place in davening to permit
it) make a bracha and do atifah and make a bracha and touch the tefelin
shel yad and shel rosh (optional to actually move them). Early minyanim
accommodate people who need to get to work and it may be forbidden to
delay the schedule and make someone miss their bus or ride. You can put
on talis and tefelin if need be even at the very end of davening and
just say shema again. The key  issue here that was not mentioned is what
time does the mara d'asra say you can make a bracha on each (as times
are different for tallis and for tefelin) and what is the Rav's policy
for that minyan.

Avy Dachman


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 3,2011 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Facing the Temple Mount in Prayer

In MJ 60#33 Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...> remarked:

> Rav Zilberman runs a very popular Haredi,
> Lithuanian educational facility in the Jewish 
> Quarter with young students coming from near and far. Thus I am
> confident that he will have great influence on what happens at the Kotel.
> He markedly davens in a direction which is not toward the Kotel
>  but toward a presumed location of the Temple.
If you go to the Kotel or look at the web-cam sites of the Kotel
at a time that people are likely to be davening the Amida, you
will no doubt see a few people face to the left of the Kotel - in
the direction of the Kodesh haKodashim [= Holy of Holies]. There
was a recent MJ thread on the issue, on whether there is any
virtue to fine tuning and facing the Temple Mount if one is
outside Jerusalem as the law in the gemarra says one needs only to
face Jerusalem. This is the same principle of whether there is a
virtue to facing the Kodesh haKodashim or it is only necessary if
one is in the Azara [=Temple Court Yard] itself.
I have made a remark in another thread about special customs of
this well known public family.
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Keith Bierman <khbkhb@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 6,2011 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Is Bone Charcoal from Prohibited Animals Suitable for Use in Kosher Co

Michael Rogovin <mrogovin118@...> asked (MJ 60#33):

> Is charcoal made from bones of prohibited animals (shellfish, pig,
> etc.) permitted for cooking? On the one hand, bones are not themselves
> explicitly prohibited and are certainly inedible once charred (no form of
> charcoal is edible).

"Activated" charcoal is often ingested, either as a digestive aid or for
minor "poison control" needs. And, for whatever its worth, my dog enjoys
eating charcoal.

So I'm not sure that it's "not edible" and "something a dog wouldn't eat."
So I'd have guessed that it was NOT kosher if it came from a treif source.
But I look forward to more knowledgable posters providing halachic sources!

Keith Bierman


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 5,2011 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Ledabber bam

Thanks to Prof. Schwartz for his erudite explanation of "ledabber bam" (MJ 60#33),
meaning that the father speaks in Torah, the son listens.  He also sees the
father speaking in Torah all day.  Teaching by example.

It occurred to me that Hazal understood the verse the same way, for in the
Sifrei Devarim 46 we find: from here they learned that when a child begins
to speak, his father speaks to him in the Language of Holiness (Hebrew) and
teaches him Torah...if not...he might as well have buried him.  Here
obviously only the father is speaking.
BTW, I think that the word qodesh is a euphemism for Hashem (another
euphemism), so that leshon haqodesh means "The language of God."


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 12:01 AM
Subject: New Zealand

In reply to Orrin Tilevitz <tilevitzo@...> (MJ 60#33):

What (civil) day of the week do they keep Shabbat - according to Chazon 
Ish (Sunday) or regular (Saturday) or both?

There are date-line issues involved and there was a thread on MJ a few 
months ago.

David Ziants


From: David Tzohar <davidtzohar@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 6,2011 at 03:01 PM
Subject: The Mitzvah of Zro'ah, Lechayayim veKeivah

In last weeks parasha (Shoftim Dev.18:3) the Torah commands us,whenever we slaughter cattle or sheep 
we must give three cuts of meat, zro'ah, lechayayim, keivah (the shoulder, cheeks and maw)  to a Kohen. I 
call this one of the "mitzvot yetomot"(orphan mitzvot). Why "orphan"? Even though all of the early poskim 
who made lists of the 613 Torah commandments (Rambam, SMaG, Chinuch) all include it as one of the 
613, almost no one observes it!

Although the Mechaber ruled that outside Eretz Yisrael there is no mitzvah, as far as I know there is no 
halachic authority who rules that there is no mitzvah in Eretz Yisrael and yet the slaughterhouses and 
Kashrut authorities ignore it. This is probably because unlike tithes which must be taken before
the fruit can be eaten, even if ZLK is not given it doesn't affect the kashrut of the meat and it can be eaten. 
There is an issue of "stealing" what rightfully should be given to the kohen, but since no one can prove
that he is actually a kohen, there is no one to whom it must be given (hamotzi mechaveiro alav hareayah)
The Rabbanut Harashit is trying to convince the slaughterhouses to accept a "mechirat chametz" type of 
solution. Either a fictitious partnership with a non-Jew or giving a loan to a kohen under hetter iska and 
then accepting repayment without interest. But in the meantime this mitzvah will continue to be an 

David Tzohar


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Fri, Sep 2,2011 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Tzedakah

Our shule has pushkes (containers for collecting tzedukah) available before
davening -- but it is not unusual for a child to take a pushke around during
the shatz's repetition (after Kedushah).

We also have tri-lingual signs (English, Hebrew, Russian) asking mishulachim
not to disturb the davening -- some obey the signs, some do not.

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 03:01 AM
Subject: Tzedakah

Michael Poppers <MPoppers@...> wrote (MJ 60#33):

> In my experience, it is usually a youngster (for purposes of chinuch) but not
> always, and (with rare & unplanned exceptions) not just at Shacharis, but also
> at Mincha. 
> At KAJ/"Breuer's," where I grew up, a member of the Synagogue Committee went
> around w/ a pushke during chazaras haSHaTZ.

Perhaps getting a youngster to go around with a pushke during chazarat
hashats is a poor form of chinuch. It encourages them to consider it as not
too terribly important and may be the reason why, when adults, they do not
pay attention to it as required by halachah. There are better times to
collect such as during Vayevareich David or after Kriat Hatorah. Where this
custom is well-established, perhaps one should not object, but to introduce
it otherwise is not necessarily advisable.

Martin Stern

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 05:01 AM
Subject: Tzedakah

Avraham Friedenberg <elshpen@...> wrote (MJ 60#33):

> I personally won't give at all while I am davening.  Davening is one of the
> few quiet times I have during the day, and while I appreciate the fact
> that they need (or an organization needs) the money, giving it to them while
> I am davening or 30 minutes later really won't make a difference.

This is precisely the point and why I think there should be clear guidelines
as to when they are allowed to go round which should be enforced.

> That being said, almost all those collecting wait until davening is over
> before they begin their spiel.  I don't know if this is official shule
> policy or politeness, but I, for one, appreciate it.

Unfortunately, my experience is completely different, with collectors coming
round at all times, as I wrote previously wrote (MJ 60#30). Even if one is in
the middle of some part of davenning where one cannot make a break, some
still insist on importuning and assume that one did not notice them the
first time they stuck their authorisation letter in front of one.

On another point, I have noticed some collectors, mercifully not too many,
come round stinking of tobacco. This is very disturbing and I wonder whether
this might actually prevent one from davenning because of the presence of 
an evil smell. Whether one should support people who have impoverished 
themselves by pursuing this costly and dangerous habit is quite a separate matter.

Martin Stern


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 02:01 AM
Subject: Where will it end?

I just noticed that the air freshener we are using in our bathroom is
marked as "Kasher LiMehardin." Honestly, I had no intention of eating it ...

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 4,2011 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Who starts the davening

I'm not sure if this is an halachic issue or soothing a pet peeve --

In many congregations there is a very visible clock and everyone seems to
wait for posted z'man for davening to begin.
The Chazen is posted ready at the bimah and "they're off!"

I find in some congregations the Chazen begins -- "v'hoo rachum" or "ashray"
as appropriate and the congregation then follows moments later.

In other congregations the Rabbi is the first to begin.

BUT -- In other congregations it seems that a congregant (or congregants)
seems to pre-empt  the Chazen by rushing to be the first to shout out the
above (even when the Rabbi is present).



From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 3,2011 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Zilberman customs

In MJ 60#33 Richard Fiedler <richardfiedler@...> remarked concerning Rav 
Zilberman's customs:

> He markedly davens in a direction which is not toward the Kotel
> but toward a presumed location of the Temple.
> BTW he also wears Tekhelet on his Talit and is seen most times
> during the day wearing his Tefillin.
It is also well known that the custom of this Rav and his family and
community is to follow the gr"a [=Gaon Rabbi Eliyahu i.e. Gaon from
Vilna] through and through.
Thus, in addition to the standard Eretz Yisrael nusach ashkenaz
customs, they do not answer baruch hu uvaruch shemo at any place
at all, including chazarat hashatz.
A few weeks ago we were invited to stay over with someone for
shabbat and I found myself davening shabbat afternoon at a Teimani
(Beladi) minyan. As well as some other interesting differences to
both ashkenazim and sephardim, the Yemenites also do not
answer baruch hu uveraruch shemo - being an interruption - but
listen attentively and just answer Amen as mandated by the Rambam.
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 60 Issue 34