Volume 60 Number 56 
      Produced: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 19:29:26 EST

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

    [Ari Trachtenberg]
Brouhaha about seating (4)
    [Steven Oppenheimer  Bernard Raab  Rabbi R. Bulka  Yisrael Medad]
Dairy after Meat, Meat after Dairy -- and sleep 
    [Carl Singer]
gambling for charity 
    [Ari Trachtenberg]
Sons & Daughters in Sefer Bereshit 
    [Abe Brot]
Standing during chazarat hashatz 
    [David Tzohar]
The ruling of "better to go before a firing squad than hear a woman si 
    [David Tzohar]
What Day Of The Week Will Shabbos Be In Samoa? (2)
    [Yisrael Medad  David Ziants]


From: Ari Trachtenberg <trach...@...>
Date: Sat, Dec 31,2011 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Administravia

Welcome to the Google Groups version of the Mail-Jewish
list.  The mailing list should function just as before, but e-mails
will now be coming from google.com.  Please e-mail
submissions, as before, to <m...@...> (keeping in
mind the submission guidelines at http://mj.bu.edu/).

   Ari Trachtenberg, on behalf of the moderation team


From: Steven Oppenheimer <steven.oppenhei...@...>
Date: Thu, Dec 29,2011 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Brouhaha about seating

There has been a lot of discussion about sitting next to a woman while
traveling on a plane, bus, train, etc.  The topic has captured the
headlines in Israel and for that matter in the world press.

I would suggest reading the responsum from Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt"l -
Iggerot Moshe, Even HaEzer Vol. 2 Siman 14 - where he deals with the
permissibility of sitting and/or standing next to a woman on a crowded bus
or subway where one may inadvertently come into contact with a woman.

It is most instructive.

Steven Oppenheimer, D.M.D.

From: Bernard Raab <ber...@...>
Date: Sat, Dec 31,2011 at 08:01 PM
Subject: Brouhaha about seating

From: Stuart Pilichowski (M-J V60#55):
> In reply to Shmuel Himelstein (MJ 60#54):
> Seems to me a simple case of the Charedi man acting on a chumrah he practices
> and he's pretty sure (chazakah?) the fellow he's asking doesn't practice.

This practice (i.e., asking a male stranger to change seats with you because you 
have been assigned a seat next to a woman) is offensive simply because you are 
announcing that you are "holier than thou." I would approve this practice, 
however, if he asked a woman sitting next to a strange man to make the change, 
since she may herself feel more comfortable next to another woman. In practice I 
suspect this is never the case since the haredi would be unlikely to approach a 
strange woman with this request. Am I wrong? 

Bernie R.

From: Rabbi R. Bulka <rabbibu...@...>
Date: Sun, Jan 1,2012 at 12:01 AM
Subject: Brouhaha about seating

In light of the recent events in Ramat Bet Shemesh, listmembers may be 
interested in my latest book, THE JEWISH AGENDA: AN OLD-NEW LOOK AT THE BIG 
PICTURE. In it, I point out that we have lost sight of our global 
responsibility and that re-kindling this responsibility is essential to the 
fulfillment of our mission and will hopefully obviate the types of Hillul 
ha-Shem we recently experienced.

Rabbi Reuven P. Bulka

From: Yisrael Medad <ybme...@...>
Date: Mon, Jan 2,2012 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Brouhaha about seating

Following up on MJ 60#55, and perhaps contributing to 
understanding/comprehending the Hareidi perspective in these modern 
times, I suggest these book/pamphlets and maybe someone will do an 
academic research paper on them:

Alei Ayin al Shmirat HaEinayim

Sefer Divrei HaShalom B'Inyan Kisui HaRosh v'HaRegel

U'Vcharta B'Chayim - 13 Ikarim L'Shmirat HaGuf v'HaNefesh B'dvarim
N'chutzim B'zmaneinu

V'Yadata Ki Shalom Ohalecha - Pirkei Hadracha L'Chayei HaBayit

Shlosha Ma'amarim al Issur P'gam Einayim

Shaarei Hatzalah

Kranot Tzadik - B'Inyan P'gam HaBrit v'Seder Yemei Shovavaim

Sefer Halacha L'Ma'aseh - Yichud v'Gidrei K'dusha

Sefer Ha'Issur HeChamor

Sefer Kedusha u'Tzniyut

all of which (in addition to others deal with issues of what we could 
term "modesty matters" from walking down a street to riding a bus and 
other affairs, some literal.

All of the above are on my library shelf at home, in addition to a dozen 
broadsheets (no feminist slur there), as well as additional wall poster 
material I have uploaded at my blog
(www.myrightword.blogspot.com <http://www.myrightword.blogspot.com/>) 
over the years and at a Facebook album I have up.



From: Carl Singer <carl.sin...@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 3,2012 at 08:01 AM
Subject: Dairy after Meat, Meat after Dairy -- and sleep

So after a hearty fleischig chulent you fall sound asleep.  When you awake
X minutes later may you now eat a bowl of dairy ice cream?

What are the halachic and practical responses to the above?

BTW -- when I wake, I want more chulent :).



From: Ari Trachtenberg <bo...@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 3,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: gambling for charity

I had a bet with another moderator ($1 to tsdaka)
that at least 1/3 of our membership would successfully transition
to the new google group within the first week.  Is this considered


From: Abe Brot <abe.b...@...>
Date: Thu, Dec 29,2011 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Sons & Daughters in Sefer Bereshit

If we review the last 9 parshiot (Lech-Lecha to Vayigash), and count the
number of sons and daughters born to our forefathers, we see something

Avraham had 8 reported sons and no reported daughters

Yitzhak had 2 reported sons and no reported daughters

Ya'akov had 12 reported sons and 1 reported daughter (Dina)

Ya'akov's sons had 53 reported sons and 1 reported daughter (Serach)

The total from all of them is 75 reported sons and 2 reported daughters.
The probability that this occurred naturally is several trillion to one. It
is equivalent to tossing a coin 77 times and having heads fall 75 times and
tails twice.

Of course, G-d could have made a miracle for this to occur, but to what
end? Clearly, if sufficient daughters were born, some of the sons could
have married their Israelite cousins instead of marrying Canaanite women.
So why would G-d produce this sort of miracle to limit the number of
daughters born?

It seems to me that the Torah mentions daughters only when they are needed
for the narrative. Dina was mentioned because of the incident with Shechem.
(There is a Midrash that Serach survived the entire 210 years in Egypt and then
showed Moshe where Yosef's bones were hidden. Perhaps she was
mentioned only in this context.)

If my assumption is right, Ya'akov's sons had many more than the reported
54 children. As a result, many more than 70 Israelite souls went down to 
Egypt to start the Israelite community there.

I have heard about a Midrash that says that each of Ya'akov's sons was born
together with a twin sister. Even if this is so, Ya'akov's sons could not
marry their sisters. In any case, there are no reports on what happened to
Ya'akov's additional daughters and their children?

If someone has some thoughts on this matter, please speak up.

Avraham Brot from Petah-Tikva


From: David Tzohar <davidtzo...@...>
Date: Thu, Dec 29,2011 at 01:01 PM
Subject: Standing during chazarat hashatz

I picked up this minhag (to stand during chazarat hashatz) from the Yeshiva I 
learned at in Yerushalaim, although they have no connection to RYBS or his 
minhagim. Many others keep this minhag. For instance, the Rav of our shul, 
R"Avraham Rubin, a Slonim Chassid, stands for all the chazarat hashatz, albeit not 
at attention; he sways from side to side. As a matter of fact, he often stands for 
the whole dovening, *including all 25 hours of Yom Kippur*! According to him we 
are commanded to *stand* before Hashem in prayer, therefore at least
lechatchila we should be standing for the whole tefilla. BTW does any one know if 
during the Temple service the people were allowed to sit, or did they have to 
stand all times?

David Tzohar


From: David Tzohar <davidtzo...@...>
Date: Thu, Dec 29,2011 at 01:01 PM
Subject: The ruling of "better to go before a firing squad than hear a woman si

IIRC R' Elyakim Levanon said this. It can be understood in two ways.

1. Guzma bealma [trying to make a point by gross exaggeration]. In a
similar vein, R' Herschel Shachter said "ordaining female rabbis is
yehareg veal-ya'avor." Or we hear that partrilineal determination of
Jewishness is "Gzeirat hashmad." Using the extreme terms makes people
stand up and take notice, and it is also an indication of how seriously
they take the issue.

2. I think that R'Elyakim wanted to say something a little deeper. Kol
isha is a snif of erva, actually Chazal said it IS erva (kol beisha
erva). Erva issues are treated  more stringently. As in the case of
the lovesick man who the doctors said would die if he would not be
allowed to have relations with her. Chazal said that not only was he
not allowed to touch her lttle finger, it would be better to die than
to even hear her voice from behind the wall! Or better to go before a
firing squad than to hear the erva of a woman's voice.
David Tzohar

From: Yisrael Medad <ybme...@...>
Date: Sat, Dec 31,2011 at 07:01 PM
Subject: What Day Of The Week Will Shabbos Be In Samoa?

Following on from our discussions some time ago, MJ members may find this
article of interest:

With Samoa calendar change, question for Jews: When is Shabbat?

By Adam Soclof, December 30, 2011


Yisrael Medad
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
www.myrightword.blogspot.com <http://www.myrightword.blogspot.com/>
http://www.ymedad.blogspot.com/  (')

From: David Ziants <dzia...@...>
Date: Sun, Jan 1,2012 at 06:01 PM
Subject: What Day Of The Week Will Shabbos Be In Samoa?

Just over half a year ago, there was a discussion on Samoa and the 
international date line. The initial question can be found in MJ 60#11 
and replies by following links from querying the archives:


There was a short article on the subject in Arutz 7 news site:


I assume that this is a permanent link to the article.

The article mentions that there is at least one Jew who identified himself and
who lives on this Island. It also mentions the Rabbinic advice to try and keep 
away from such places over the days when Shabbat might be, so as not enter into 
halachic doubts, or having to keep 2 days thereof.

In feedback comment number 2 of the article, there is a reference link 
to mail-jewish archives for a halachic discussion.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 60 Issue 56