Volume 60 Number 59
Produced: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 12:17:56 EST
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
The case of the Bumbling Baal Koreh
[Michael Mirsky]
"Drumming" on Shabbos (2)
[Stu Pilichowski Yisrael Medad]
Dairy after Meat, Meat after Dairy -- and sleep
[Chaim Casper]
Le'olam yehei adam - first and foremost be a mentsch (2)
[Frank Silbermann Perets Mett]
Moving davenning place
[Martin Stern]
Seeking pattern to confusion of authorship in Talmud
[Yehuda Wiesen]
Using the phrase "women singing" as subject
[Leah S.R. Gordon]
Women singing (7)
[Martin Stern Martin Stern Frank Silbermann Wendy Baker Yisrael Medad David Tzohar Tal S. Benschar]
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From: Michael Mirsky <mirskym@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: The case of the Bumbling Baal Koreh
Apparently Orrin (MJ 60#58) didn't want to offer to take over the laining in
order to not embarrass the Ba'al koreh.
Tricky situation. I think your assessment of how knowledgeable the others
in the minyan were might determine the course of action. If they realize
he is having trouble, then stepping forward would be a relief to him and
them (but I would quietly ask him what he prefered before trying to take
over). But if they are completely unlearned, and don't realize he is
blowing it, then it might be an embarrassment to him for you to in effect
ask the "Rabbi" to step aside. (Unless somehow you could make it look like
you shared the parasha with him and now it's your turn.)
Since people were calling out corrections, it looked to me like the first
case was the one you were in.
Michael
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From: Stu Pilichowski <cshmuel@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: "Drumming" on Shabbos
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 60#58):
> One of our balabatim [members of our congregation --Mod.] was shaliach tzibor
> for Kabbalos Shabbos [led the prayer service on Friday evening as we welcomed
> Shabbos -- Mod.] and he started a lively tune for L'cho Dodi -- and he started
> drumming on the shulchan (which happens to be a cabinet, thus quite
> resonant). His drumming (as I characterize it) was with both palms and fists
> on the shulchan throughout L'cho Dodi -- quite rhythmic and loud. If one
> hadn't been looking they might have mistaken the sound for bongo drums.
>
> I thought this might come under a prohibition of musical instruments. Any
> comments?
Sometimes a cabinet is just that - a cabinet and not, in fact, bongo drums or a
musical instrument.
Heard about the shul that restricted the throwing of candy bags during a
simcha? They insisted that only single candies be thrown. When thrown the
bags sound like Mexican maracas and therefore might come under the
prohibition of musical instruments.
Heard about the shul that required all bottles be opened before shabbat?
Not because of the normal strictures of Tearing; Fashioning an opening;
Completing the formation of a utensil; or Erasing. But rather the popping sound
may sound like a musical instrument - especially when done in conjunction
with other bottles.
I believe this is a case of taking matters to extremes and it is entirely
unnecessary to even think in this direction.
Stu
Mevasseret
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: "Drumming" on Shabbos
Re: "Drumming" on Shabbos, MJ 60#58:
If I had smicha [Rabbinic ordination], I would prohibit it for two reasons:
(i) musical playing activity and
(ii) interfering with my prayer concentration.
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
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From: Chaim Casper <surfflorist@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Dairy after Meat, Meat after Dairy -- and sleep
Carl Singer wrote (MJ 60#56):
>> So after a hearty fleischig chulent you fall sound asleep. When you wake
>> X minutes later may you now eat a bowl of dairy ice cream?
>> What are the halachic and practical responses to the above?
>> BTW -- when I wake, I want more chulent :).
Richard responded (MJ 60#58):
> Funnily enough, this topic was discussed at our shiur this morning.
> Apparently, this question is discussed by the Imrei Emes (or the Sefas Emes),
> who suggeststhat sleeping at night may reduce the time required to wait after
> meat to eatdairy. The questions we had at the shiur were "How long do you
> have to sleep and does sleeping during the day count?" We then digressed onto
> what is the reasonand our medical participants were not really able to
> suggest a reason such as changes in metabolism rates during sleep.
The issue of eating dairy after meat is based on Hullin 105 and a mahloket
[dispute] there among the Rishonim. One said that we are worried about
filaments of meat that remain between the teeth -- it takes six hours for these
meat filaments to disintegrate to the point that we do not consider them meat
anymore. The other said we are worried about the taste of the meat in our
mouth -- it takes six hours for the taste to disappear (or at least disintegrate
to a non-noticeable taste). Now, I do not understand why sleep would affect the
first view (the meat filaments are still physically there five hours after
eating the meat), but the second view I could understand. After all, more than
one toothpaste brand has made an advertising slogan of removing the bad taste in
the mouth after sleeping, so maybe the Imrei Emet/Sefat Emet was saying that the
taste in the mouth masks the taste of the meat? (In halakhic terms, the taste
build-up in the mouth while one is sleeping is similar to the effect that kinuah
[eating plain bread to clean the mouth and mask and remove the meat taste] would
have.) I can't say for sure, as I didn't see him inside. Of course, the RaM"A
says (Yoreh Deah 89:1) that the minhag pashut ("common custom") is to wait one
hour after meat before having dairy. But the medakdekim (those who are
meticulous in doing the law) wait six hours and everyone who has "the spirit of
Torah in them (see the Sha"Kh 89:8)" should wait six hours (which is the time
frame of the mehaber there). And that is what rov am [most people] do today,
except for the Holland community which waited only one hour and the German
community which did a three hour compromise. When I was a student at Boston
University some forty years ago, I knew a girl who went to Maimonides in Boston
whose father came from Holland. She said Thanksgiving Day turkey was great
because by the time the table had been cleared and the dishes washed, an hour
had passed so they could have Carvel for dessert!
B'virkat Torah
Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
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From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Le'olam yehei adam - first and foremost be a mentsch
Steven Oppenheimer wrote (MJ 60#58):
> How could a G-d fearing person spit at a little girl,
> call a Jewish woman a harlot, attack and throw stones
> at another Jew or call Jewish policemen Nazis?
Could it be Guzma bealma [trying to make a point
by gross exaggeration]?
Frank Silbermann Memphis, Tennessee
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From: Perets Mett <p.mett00@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Le'olam yehei adam - first and foremost be a mentsch
This message was addressed to Mail-Jewish (60#58):
> The news these last few weeks about some people spitting at little girls,
> ...
> Some of us need to relearn the above lesson.
Does anybody think that readers of Mail-Jewish are guilty of this?
Perets
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Moving davenning place
Is there a custom to daven shemonei esrei davka [specifically] in a
different place from where one was sitting for kriat shema?
The reason I ask is that the shul in which I daven on weekday mornings
has fixed pew seating and the seat I have been allocated is next to the
wall. The one next to it is usually vacant so I can take three steps back
into its space. The seats in the row behind mine are only used by occasional
visitors and are often empty, so I do not need to worry about stepping back in
front of someone who is still davenning shemonei esrei.
I have noticed that some, especially latecomers, sit there. Before starting
shemonei esrei I check where they are sitting and if it is behind the seat next
to mine I daven there so as to be able to step back into my regular seat's
space. On occasion I do so only to find that they have also moved so I have
stepped directly in front of them which is something I always try to avoid.
Luckily there are opinions that this is not a breach of halachah where there are
such fixed pews but I try to avoid it anyway.
The only other explanation I can think of is that they want, for some
reason, not to daven shemonei esrei immediately behind someone already doing
so but, again, I am not aware of any such hakpadah [stringency].
Can anyone shed further light on the reasons behind these people's strange
behaviour?
Martin Stern
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From: Yehuda Wiesen <wiesen@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Seeking pattern to confusion of authorship in Talmud
When the Talmud says a teaching might have been after ploni A or ploni B, are
there reasons why the two plonim might be confused with one another? Are they
generally both students of the same school or rabbi? Did they live in the same
town or study together?
As one who has studied learning and forgetting, it seems to me that there must
be a pattern to the confusion. Little of this type happens just by chance.
Surely someone has studied this. Does anyone know who or where?
Yehuda
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From: Leah S.R. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 06:01 AM
Subject: Using the phrase "women singing" as subject
I'm sure no one meant offence, but I think it's reasonable for me to
explain why no one on M.J should be using "women singing" as the subject
heading when they're talking about men hearing women singing.
On Mail.Jewish, lots of women are participants - reading, posting,
discussing issues.
When a subject heading seems to apply only to some (i.e. why would it
matter to women if a woman is singing) it seems to exclude women from the
klal.
A subject header such as "men hearing women sing" or even "men hearing
women sing, halakhic concerns" would be both more accurate and more
pleasant for us women to read.
For a more obvious example, suppose the topic was called "relations with
your wife" - anyone who isn't a married man will then feel excluded.
I think that in the religious Jewish domain, it is particularly
mentsch-like to make sure that all readers of this forum feel included in
the study and conversation.
--Leah S. R. Gordon
Moderator's note: No offence was intended but Leah is correct that the subject
heading could have been better chosen. We apologise if anyone felt slighted as a
result. Though the problem is for men to listen to women singing, its halachic
ramifications include whether a woman may sing in front of men, so it applies to
both sexes and nobody should feel excluded. We would be only too pleased to hear
comments on the subject from Leah or any other female contributor and thank all
our list members, including at least one female contributor, for the many
submissions received thus far.
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Women singing
Irwin Weiss wrote (MJ 60#58):
> Did Moshe Rabbenu and the B'nai Yisrael who fled from Egypt at the Yam Suf
> hear Miriam and the women singing?
Possibly not, since the Torah explicitly states (Ex.15,20), "vateitsena kol
hanashim [all the women went out i.e. away from the main camp]," and in any case
they banged on drums while singing (ibid.) so their voices may well have been
inaudible.
Martin Stern
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Women singing
Mark Steiner wrote (MJ 60#58):
> In fairness to R. Elyakim Levanon, what he said was that COERCING a
> religious soldier to listen to women singing by a military order is SHMAD
> (forced apostasy), and in a period of shmad even minor transgressions and
> even minor matters of Jewish attire must be complied with to the death.
>
> Thus, discussions of the nature of the prohibition to hear women singing are
> not to the point here. The commander in chief of the Israeli Defense forces
> has actually issued such an order--religious soldiers cannot be excused from
> listening to female singers at official ceremonies.
The sacking of Rabbi Moshe Raavad as IAF Chief Rabbi because he dared to
criticise Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Benny Gantz's decision that religious
soldiers would be obligated to remain in military ceremonies even if they
will be forced to listen to a female singers perform seems to suggest that
Rabbi Levanon might be quite correct that this is a case of SHMAD (forced
apostasy).
Martin Stern
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From: Frank Silbermann <frank_silbermann@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 03:01 PM
Subject: Women singing
Mark Steiner wrote (MJ 60#58):
> In fairness to R. Elyakim Levanon, what he said was that COERCING a
> religious soldier to listen to women singing by a military order is SHMAD
> (forced apostasy), and in a period of shmad even minor transgressions and
> even minor matters of Jewish attire must be complied with to the death.
> The commander in chief of the Israeli Defense forces has actually issued
> such an order--religious soldiers cannot be excused from listening to female
> singers at official ceremonies.
If the official ceremonies are not on Shabbas, I suppose a compromise would
be for the IDF to allow religious soldiers to wear a BlueTooth earphone
that plays other people singing that he can switch on during the moments
when a woman is singing. The rabbis, for their part, can compromise
by allowing soldiers to rely on the Minhag Ashkenaz mentioned by Richard
Steinberger (ibid.) that allows women singing together with men to be heard.
Frank Silbermann Memphis, Tennessee
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From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 04:01 PM
Subject: Women singing
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 60#58):
> Generally speaking "a woman's voice is sexually exciting" has always been
> understood to refer to singing and not to ordinary speech. In the case of a
> woman for whom a man has an overpowering attraction, there might be room to
> argue that even listening to her speak might be prohibited.
Why is it always assumed that men have these "overpowering attractions"?
Is it considered impossible for women to have such attractions, say to a
good looking young hazan with a beautiful voice? Women listen to men
singing all the time and don't rush out to attack the desired singer nor
is it apparently considered a problem if their minds are not on their
davvening and their relationship to Hashem. Is it just that women's
prayer somehow doesn't count or that they are assumed to not have sexual
atractions? I am not asking for a prohibition on women hearing men sing,
just wondering.
Wendy Baker
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From: Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Tue, Jan 10,2012 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Women singing
Irwin Weiss (MJ 60#58) asks about: Miriam and others females singing
I have no problem with that, but I hope their drumming was in better form
than that guy banging on the bimah that Carl mentioned (ibid.).
Yisrael Medad
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From: David Tzohar <davidtzohar@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 07:01 AM
Subject: Women singing
Irwin Weiss asked (MJ 60#58) if Bnei Yisrael heard the women singing at Shirat
Hayam. If they did, they did not hear a woman sing solo. There is a
principle known as "trei kalei la mishtam'ai" [when more than one person is
singing, you can't distinguish the individual voice and connect it to
a specific woman]. In this case many poskim [halachic decisors - MOD] are
lenient and permit listening. Also, there are poskim who permit listening to
women singing Torah-based passages such as Shabbat table hymns. Shirat Hayam is
definitely shirat kodesh.
--
David Tzohar
http://tzoharlateivahebrew.blogspot.com/
http://tzoharlateiva.blogspot.com/
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From: Tal S. Benschar <tbenschar@...>
Date: Wed, Jan 11,2012 at 11:01 AM
Subject: Women singing
"Did Moshe Rabbenu and the B'nai Yisrael who fled from Egypt at the Yam Suf hear
Miriam and the women singing?"
The possuk seems to indicate that Miriam and the women "went out" (vateitzenah)
of the camp to sing:
"Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand,
and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing. And Miriam
sang to them: 'Sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and
his rider he has thrown into the sea.'" (Shemos 15:20-21)
It thus appears that the men did not hear them sing.
What is clear is that there was no combined singing -- Moshe led the men, and
Miriam led the women. As Rashi explains, quoting the Mechilta: And Miriam
called out to them: Moses said the Song to the men, and they answered after him,
and Miriam said the song to the women.
So gender separation, at least in singing, is hardly new.
Tal S. Benschar
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End of Volume 60 Issue 59
