Volume 62 Number 31
Produced: Thu, 04 Sep 14 05:35:11 -0400
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Kosher Supervision Standards
[Martin Stern]
Loud Music (3)
[Isaac Balbin Moshe Poupko Harlan Braude]
Reciting L'David Hashem Ori (4)
[David Ziants Roger Kingsley Chaim Casper Elazar M. Teitz]
Standardization of Yiddishkeit (2)
[Chaim Casper Carl Singer]
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Sep 1,2014 at 05:01 PM
Subject: Kosher Supervision Standards
Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 62#29):
> But 'Puh-leaze', don't confuse the two: natural is natural while kosher is
> kosher.
Overemphasising the importance of things being 'natural' is the essence of
paganism. Judaism does not worship nature and sees man's purpose as being to
perfect it as, so to speak partners of HKBH. This is the essential lesson to be
learned from milah [circumcision] - that we can, and are in fact duty bound to,
do precisely that.
This is emphgasised by its being on the eighth day - seven days represent the
creation of the natural world with the eighth a higher spiritual level as
explained by Rav S.R. Hirsch in Timeless Torah p.404. For an excellent
discussion of this, and related, ideas see R. Pesach Krohn's Bris Milah (Mesorah
Pub.,'85)
Martin Stern
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From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 2,2014 at 11:01 PM
Subject: Loud Music
In reply to the contributors on this subject (MJ 62#29).
Martin Stern wrote:
> My experience, having married off 10 children, is that band leaders either
> ignore the Baalei Simcha's request or have had their hearing so impaired by
> exposure to excessively high noise levels that they no longer are aware that
> they may be too loud. Damage to hearing by exposure to excessive noise is a
> well attested medical phenomenon and there might be a case for suing bands
> that cause it. At one of my sons' weddings the level of noise (I find it
> difficult to refer to it as music) was so high that I became ill and had to
> leave.
> ...
> This might excuse louder music during dancing but not at other times when it
> makes conversation impossible.
I don't know what happens in England, but as a band leader I would be horrified
if a Ba'al Simcha had to leave because of the volume during dancing. Och und Vey
(Crikey). I'm assuming you aren't a cantankerous type whose wife said to go home
:-) (Joke).
My policy has always been that in between dancing sets, the music is recorded
and played from my iPod. The volume is set so that it is "just" heard but not
silent in the room. To me, this is "down time" where people recuperate and eat
and converse.
At the end of each bracket (unless a Ba'al Simcha comes to me earlier) I go to
the head table, and at separate weddings I also go on the women's side to ask
the female folk "how is volume". They answer, and I adjust accordingly. Schnapps
isn't known as a quiet band by any stretch, but that has ALWAYS been my
philosophy. I never do what *I* want, and that includes repertoire which is
chosen in my office between Bride and Groom (sometimes Mechutonim are there).
It's all very civil.
Michael Rogovin wrote:
> I am unsympathetic to Isaac Balbin's defense of loud music at simchas (MJ
> 62#28). First, as someone who has planned simchas and spoken with baalei
> simchas, I do not ever recall anyone demanding that the band play loudly. In
> fact, at my wedding when I instructed the band (Shelly Lang//Negina (who did a
> great job by the way) to lower the volume, they said guests will complain.
Probably about 20% of the time, I have Bride and Groom say "don't listen to the
oldies, keep it pumping". I tell them that they need to negotiate this with
their respective parents. I'm talking about during dance brackets. There is no
doubt, that some Mechutonim want the dance music quiet(er) during a DANCE
bracket so that their friends who don't/won't/can' be bothered dancing can chat
at the table. I make it clear, that the audience and ambient level is geared
towards those who are participating in the dancing and it is that level which
they control, but it is ludicrous to discriminate against those "having a party"
because others want to enjoy a quiet chat DURING a dance bracket. In between, I
fully agree, as above, that it needs to be very quiet.
Now, I know 3 or 4 people who have ear problems. How do I know this? Because
a) they have told me,
b) immediately after a bracket starts they have one finger in their
ear.
As I alternate between singing and playing fiddle etc it's difficult, but I will
often give them a throw away ear plug (some of my musicians wear them). If I was
such a person, I would always attend a simcha with them in my pocket and pop
them in. The fault/issue is with my sensitive ears. Now, as far as max volumes
and damage is concerned, some halls have limits which cut out the electricity; I
have an iPhone app which tells me etc
The craziest aspect of this is that I have never worn ear plugs (I like to
hear it pure) and I stand next to the drummer. Yet, I am the first in our
house to hear someone at the front door, and am most annoyed by any
repetitive noise like a washing machine. I have highly sensitised ears. In
some ways its a curse. If a Ba'al Tefilla veers off tune, I actually suffer
and don't always do a good job of not noting it. Let's not forget, I
repeat, that some halls, especially older ones and mod concrete jungles and
those where the band faces a large reflective window wall, have such
shocking acoustics, the band is really up against it. I have some tricks up
my sleeve to deal with that, but sometimes Ba'alei Simcha don't want to pay
a little extra to mitigate music seepage.
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From: Moshe Poupko <mopo@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Loud Music
In the discussion about loud music, one "guest" was ignored. Small children and
babies who are brought to weddings where the music is very loud have no defense.
It is very common to see children standing at the bandstand getting the full
blast of the volume. It is amazing that their parents seem to be totally
oblivious to the cumulative damage being done to their offspring.
Any thoughts?
Moshe Poupko
Jerusalem
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From: Harlan Braude <hbraude@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 10:01 AM
Subject: Loud Music
In MJ 62#30, Frank Silbermann wrote:
> Does anyone know why Simcha music, aside from being too loud, is so _bad_
I'm so glad Frank brought this up, since it's one I've been wondered - and
lamented - about for years. What I discovered in my discussions with both
consumers and producers of so-called Jewish music is that there are quite a
number of issues involved, some irreconcilable.
There are a lot of contrasts between secular music and its performers, like
those Frank mentioned, and what the Orthodox Jewish community has come to
expect/request at simchas, concerts and in recordings.
The primary purpose of secular music is first and foremost to entertain,
sometimes followed - especially where there are lyrics - with an attempt to
share an idea, imagery or emotion. In the Jewish music I'm referring to, the
priority is reversed. That's not to say that entertainment is unimportant in
Orthodox Jewish music, just that it takes a back seat to some sort of ethical or
moral message.
There have been Orthodox Jewish entertainers - male and female - and bands over
the years that attempted to marry secular-style music with passages from
Tana"ch. Examples include the Diaspora Yeshiva Band, Piamenta, Safam, etc and
even closer to the "right" groups like Dveikus (aka, the Rabbis' Sons), even
Shlomo Carlebach. But, a lot of Orthodox Jewish music adheres to its European
Klezmer roots mostly, in my opinion, to avoid some of the surlier attributes
commonly associated with secular music and the culture it often reflects.
Also, the idea of Jewish musicians attaining the level of hero worship often
associated with their secular peers is a repugnant one in Orthodox Jewish
circles. On top of that, the lyrical expression of personal points of view over
those of the Sages does not get wide support among the Orthodox Jewish consumers
(Uncle Moishe aside).
The marketing strategy in the secular music business - and big business is
really what drives the whole genre - is to manufacture a strong following behind
an artist to maximize profit. The competition is very tough, even amongst
the small nightclubs where many of these performers start out. There is no
comparable venue to the nightclub in Orthodox Jewish circles. The greatest
community respect is reserved for Talmudic scholars on the one hand and
philanthropists among the working class. Can anyone recall someone in the Jewish
entertainment business being the honoree at the journal dinner of an Orthodox
Jewish institution? It's just not a culture we're trying to promote.
Does this mean that the quality of musicianship and music offerings in the frum
velt cannot improve? I wish it would, but I'm not optimistic.
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From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 2,2014 at 06:01 PM
Subject: Reciting L'David Hashem Ori
Chaim Casper (MJ 62#30) wrote:
> David Ziants wrote (MJ 62#29):
>> My gut feeling was that this is the "only one psalm a day" issue where,
>> unlike yom tov there might be a special psalm so the normal one is not said,
>> during this month of Elul there is no special psalm according to the Gr"a.
> David may be right but I think the GR"A says something else. The
> GR"A never said said any of the extra t'hillim we say: L'David, Borkhi
> Nafshi (on Rosh Hodesh), Lamnazeah or Mikhtam L'David (in the house of
> a mourner), or Mizmor Shir Hanukat Habayit (on Hanukkah and even as
> part of the daily shaharit). That is because they are not part of
> the davening regimen that HaZa"l set up for us. They are later
> additions. The only extra t'hilah the GR"A said was the Shir Shel
> Yom (the Psalm of the day) as that was said in the Beit Hamikdash and
> so we continue that tradition to today. The GR"A did say Ashrei on
> [Tehillim #145-150] at shaharit and Ashrei again at minhah as that is
> mentioned in the gemarah, the Mizmor before Barukh She'amar is a later
> addition.
> I once davened at the Beit K'nesset HaGR"A in Rehavia (Jerusalem).
> They have a sign by the shaliah zibbur (leader) saying that the
> official nusah of the shul is ArtScroll(!!!) which follows
> contemporary Ashkenazic liturgy and not the liturgy of the GR"A. So
> I asked someone I know there why do they call the shul the Beit
> K'nesset HaGR"A if they don't follow the GR"A's liturgy/nusah? My
> friend just shrugged his shoulders.
Thank you for your elaboration. I think we are talking about the same
shul, and here are a couple of links (both pages in Hebrew):
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%A0%D7%A1%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%92%D7%A8%22%D7%90_(%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%99_%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93)
http://www.shimur.org/%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D/articles/%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%AA%20%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%99%20%D7%97%D7%A1%D7%93
The second link, which talks about the neighborhood - shaarei chesed -
mentions the "Perushim". (For the purpose of this discussion, I want to
ignore the political and religious extremism that is associated with
this group and its offsprings relative to other chareidi groups.) They
basically set the standard for Nusach Ashkenaz as it is used in the Land
of Israel today by almost everyone who davens Nusach Ashkenaz . This is
based on nuances of the Gr"a, which were accepted by his students, but
this is not "Nusach HaGra". Some call it "Minhag haGra", but usually it
is called "Minhag Eretz Yisrael".
Many Nusach Ashkenaz communities, though, have become lax on some elements. For
example, many say shir shel yom on Shabbat before kriat hatora and not after
musaph as is printed in (I think) all the Nusach Ashkenaz siddurim. Also it is
very prevalent to say both barachi nafshi and week day (or Shabbat) psalm on
Rosh Chodesh and not just the first, although this goes against the official minhag.
I have heard of one minyan (but as far as I know have never been there)
that actually davens Nusach HaGra and that is the Silberman family
minyan in the Old City of Yerushalayim. There, one would not hear
"baruch hu uvaruch shmo" during chazarat haShatz. I have no idea what they
say (if anything) for Kabbalat Shabbat?
David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel
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From: Roger Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 04:01 AM
Subject: Reciting L'David Hashem Ori
On Chaim Casper's post (MJ 62#30), I have two points which don't seem to be
quite clear.
1. The Nusach HGra"a must have included Borkhi Nafshi on Rosh Hodesh - this
replaces the Shir Shel Yom for that day, according to Minhag HaGra. The same
presumably applies to Mizmor Shir Hanukat Habayit, as said at the end on Hanukah
(not its occurrence at the beginning, which is an oddity itself).
2. I also expect the Gra"a had both occurences of Ashrei in Shaharit, not just
one as seems to be implied. This is according to the Gemara, which mandates
saying Ashrei three times a day (we do 2 in shaharit, one in minha).
Roger Kingsley
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From: Chaim Casper <surfflorist@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Reciting L'David Hashem Ori
In MJ 62#30 I wrote:
> The GR"A did say Ashrei [and Tehillim #146-150] at Shaharit and Ashrei
> again at Minhah as that is mentioned in the Gemara.
For the record, allow me clarify that I meant the GR"A said Ashrei twice during
shaharit (once in the middle of P'sukei D'zimra and the other after
Tahanun/Qri'at HaTorah) and once at the beginning of Minhah.
B'virkat Torah,Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
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From: Elazar M. Teitz <remt@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 09:01 PM
Subject: Reciting L'David Hashem Ori
Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 62#30):
> David Ziants wrote (MJ 62#29):
>> My gut feeling was that this is the "only one psalm a day" issue where,
>> unlike yom tov there might be a special psalm so the normal one is not said,
>> during this month of Elul there is no special psalm according to the Gr"a.
> David may be right but I think the GR"A says something else. The GR"A never
> said said any of the extra t'hillim we say: L'David, Borkhi Nafshi (on Rosh
> Hodesh), Lamnazeah or Mikhtam L'David (in the house of a mourner), or Mizmor
> Shir Hanukat Habayit (on Hanukkah and even as part of the daily shaharit).
> That is because they are not part of the davening regime that HaZa"l set up
> for us. They are later additions. The only extra t'hilah the GR"A said was
> the Shir Shel Yom (the Psalm of the day) as that was said in the Beit
> Hamikdash and so we continue that tradition to today.
This is partially correct. Indeed, the only mizmor the GR"A added at the end of
davening was the Shir shel Yom; however, as David indicated, he did say Borchi
Nafshi on Rosh Chodesh and Mizmor Shir Chanukas Habayis on Chanukah -- not in
addition to the Shir shel Yom, but as the Shir. On those days, he did not say
the psalm for the day of the week, but only the special psalm for the occasion,
since that was what the L'vi'im chanted. He also said special psalms, in lieu
of the psalm for the day of the week, on all holidays, and the shul bearing his
name does likewise.
> I once davened at the Beit K'nesset HaGR"A in Rehavia (Jerusalem). They
> have a sign by the shaliah zibbur (leader) saying that the official nusah of
> the shul is ArtScroll(!!!) which follows contemporary Ashkenazic liturgy and
> not the liturgy of the GR"A. So I asked someone I know there why do they
> call the shul the Beit K'nesset HaGR"A if they don't follow the GR"A's
> liturgy/nusah? My friend just shrugged his shoulders.
The name is to honor the GR"A, not to indicate that his nusach is followed.
(Incidentally, the shul is in the Sha'arei Chesed neighborhood of Jerusalem, one
block away from Rechavia, and the sign makes no mention of Artscroll, and which
was probably unknown by the former rav of the shul (and father of its current
rav), who had the signs put up at least fifteen years ago.).
As for the shul's custom with regard to l"David Ori, David was correct in
assuming that it wasn't said -- but only on Shabbat. Had he been there on a
weekday, he would have discovered that it is said, after Shacharis and after
Ma'ariv. This was apparently the custom in some cities in Lithuania; the
practice is the same in Telshe Yeshiva, currently in suburbs of Cleveland and
Chicago, but still following the custom of its source, in the city of Telshe in
Lithuania.
EMT
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From: Chaim Casper <surfflorist@...>
Date: Sun, Aug 31,2014 at 07:01 PM
Subject: Standardization of Yiddishkeit
Carl Singer talked about "Standardization of Yiddishkeit" (MJ 62#28) and asked
three questions:
> 1 - What is standardization within Yiddishkeit?
> 2 - Is standardization within Yiddishkeit a good thing
> 3 - Is standardization within Yiddishkeit becoming more and more widespread?
Isn't "Minhag Hamakom" (the "custom of the community") standardization? I mean,
it used to be that if one moved from Minsk (Russia) to Krakow (Poland), one was
expected to follow the custom of the new community. In addition, the newcomer
was expected to adhere to the priciple of "al tifrosh min hazibbur" (do not
separate oneself from the community).
But we do find that certainly in contemporary times, people did not follow the
custom of the new community. The Gemara in P'sahim talks about the need for
visitors to at least passively embrace the customs of a new community in order
to avoid machloket (argument). Without some standardization, ChaZa"L felt,
correctly, that the community would be in a constant state of war with itself.
Rabbi Ya'akov Yosef, zt"l, the one and only chief rabbi of New York, died a
broken man because immigrants to New York in the late 1800s were unwilling to
conform to their new community. Rather, they insisted on keeping their old
customs which resulted in a very fractured community.
Glatt Kosher was non-existent in the US until it was brought here by Hungarian
refugees in the late 1940s/early 1950s which again added to the fracturing of
the community. True, it has taken over the kashrut industry (I have even seen
ads for "Glatt Kosher Plastic Table Cloths!") but for 40 years it was a major
source of friction in the community.
To put it another way: If an avel, r"l, wants to daven from the amud (lead the
services), shouldn't he follow the established, standard custom in that
community? But what if his custom is not to say Barukh HaShem L'olam in the
ma'ariv service (per the GR"A and other Aharonim)? If you say it is every man
for himself and thus no standardization, then how can you call that a community?
B'virkat Torah v'shanah tovah u'metukah,
Chaim Casper
North Miami Beach, FL
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From: Carl Singer <carl.singer@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 3,2014 at 09:01 AM
Subject: Standardization of Yiddishkeit
Martin Stern wrote (MJ 62#30):
> Carl Singer wrote (MJ 62#28):
>> ... At some point in the discussion the word "standardization" came up. And
>> it gave me pause - because I am alleged to be an expert in SW Engineering
>> standards -- but I never thought of standardization in terms of Yiddishkeit.
>>
>> An essay might follow, but first three questions:
>>
>> 1 - What is standardization within Yiddiskeit?
> The abolition of minhag hamakom [local custom] or minhag avoteihem
> [ancestral custom].
>> 2 - Is standardization within Yiddiskeit a good thing?
> In my opinion - no - there is room in Yiddiskeit for such local colour and
> it adds to its richness much as the various instruments in an orchestra
> combine to produce something greater than the sum of their individual
> contributions.
>> 3 - Is standardization within Yiddiskeit becoming more and more widespread?
> Unfortunately - yes - and this reflects an ever greater intolerance of
> anything different. Another analogy that brings out its noxious effect is to
> an artist's palette on which s/he has various pigments from which s/he can
> produce a great work of art. If they are standardised [mixed together] the
> result is a drab brownish mess no use for anything.
I find myself in strong agreement with Martin's thoughtful response (other than
the fact that on this side of the pond we've taken the "u" out of colour)
The minhag haMakom (and the minhag of our Fathers (avosaynu)) is a precious and
beautiful component of Yiddishkeit -- something we should strive to hold on to.
Not being a psychologist or sociologist I cannot pinpoint underlying causes for
standardization -- I can only speculate as follows:
A herd mentality, the need to conform, dictatorial tendencies of some
balabatim and some leaders and some educators.
All the best,
Carl
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End of Volume 62 Issue 31