Volume 65 Number 90 
      Produced: Thu, 22 Sep 22 06:18:13 -0400

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Another selichot question (3)
    [David Ziants  Sammy Finkelman  Martin Stern]
Difference between Ashkenazic and Sephardic names 
    [Sammy Finkelman]
    [Joel Rich]
Haftarah problem 
    [Sammy Finkelman]
    [Isaac Balbin]
Normative Law? 
    [Micha Berger]
    [Joel Rich]
Tainted money 
    [Micha Berger]
What is D'Oraita? 
    [Yisrael Medad]


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 17,2022 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Another selichot question

Some of these issues were addressed this morning in my shul's rav's shabbat derasha.

1) As some people have already posted here, the proper time of selichot is
before dawn in the early hours of the morning. In my opinion, this would also
explain why, when people say selichot later in the morning, before shacharit
many still do not wear tallit and tephillin (the first question to which I
already gave feedback).

2) Someone mentioned on this forum the possibility of saying selichot after
shacharit - because of the halachic principle of tadir v'lo tadir - tadir kodem
[we do the most frequent mitzva first]. But this doesn't resonate with the ideal
time for selichot as being before dawn - when it is still not possible to daven
shacharit. Does anyone actually bring this as a valid halachic option, as I will
explain further?

3) So, a particular shul (in a religious neighbourhood in Israel) everyday has
two minyanim in the morning - and in previous years the first minyan started
earlier during the selichot week for selichot - but in practice no one came in
time - so this year there is no official first minyan for selichot. In previous
years, some of those who did not have to rush off, said selichot with the second
minyan that starts after the first - also earlier than the normal time during
this week. My shul rav expressed very much disapproval of this possibility to
become institutionalised as part of the shul timetable ("one selichot minyan
that is after the first shacharit and before the second") and every effort
should be made that there is a minyan for selichot before first 
shacharit. I think though, that many first minyan people will still say selichot
after this shacharit. (On motzei shabbat there is midnight selichot only, at the
proper time, so this is not an issue - just the rest of the days.)

4) So, the shul announced that there would be a 10:30pm option in the shul
courtyard (provided it doesn't disturb the neighbours) - and the Rav said that
this is preferable than option 3 - despite it supposed to be only an emergency
option according to ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein (as others have already quoted
on this thread). The interpretation of "emergency" is becoming lenient.

Any thoughts?

David Ziants

From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 18,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Another selichot question

Steven Oppenheimer wrote (MJ 65#89):

> 2022 Update:
> I remember reading that Rav Soloveichik permitted reciting selichot at 10pm for
> people who were too weak to stay up late.  I just can't find the source at the
> moment.

In our shul it has been the practice for decades to schedule the first Selichos
for Saturday night at 10 p.m., with the Chazan for Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur
being the Chazan. The reason I heard was not so much that people couldn't stay
up late, but that it was not possible to get a minyan for 1 a.m. , so they moved
it to 10 pm.

The Rabbi at the time would have been Rabbi Phillip Harris (Pinchos) Singer, who
was a student of Rav Yosef Ber Soloveichik.

From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 21,2022 at 02:17 PM
Subject: Another selichot question

Yet another selichot question:

Why do almost all shuls say selichot so quickly? Being relatively unfamiliar
poetry, one might have expected them to be said much slower than regular

Today (Thursday) was especially fast. Normally I manage to say about half of
each selichah before the shatz gets to the Kel malekh but today I just about
finished three stanzas. As for the pizmon, I was in the middle of the FIRST LINE
of each stanza when he started the repetition! I hate to think what it will be
like os Sunday, Erev Rosh Hashanah, when there are a tremendous number of
selichot. Is it really worth getting up early for such a rushed job? Who do
people think they are fooling with this sort of speed race? And this is a
relatively slow shul that takes 50 minutes for a regular shacharit (60+ minutes
on Mondays and Thursdays).

Martin Stern


From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 21,2022 at 02:17 PM
Subject: Difference between Ashkenazic and Sephardic names

We all call someone to the Torah with the father's name, and when we make a
Misheberach for the sick we use the mother's name but yesterday I learned that
Sefardim use for yahrtzeits - or is it for Keil Maleh Rachamim also use the
mother's name.

Can someone elaborate and explain?


From: Joel Rich <joelirarich@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 20,2022 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Eulogies

My comment concerning a shiur which discussed eulogies:

>From your shiur it seems like the earliest sources were pretty clear that it's
for the honor of the departed and it was only later that the dual nature (also
for the living) you articulated became accepted. In particular it seems strange
that nobody before the Gesher Hachaim proposed that the Gemara was saying that
it really was for both purposes.

I"d say that the exception for great leaders was expanded because the people
demanded it. I think I heard one of the participants in your class say what
about the needs of the speaker to get closure. I think that's a great example as
funerals today seem often to be more about the speakers than the departed.


Joel Rich


From: Sammy Finkelman <sammy.finkelman@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 18,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Haftarah problem

I wrote (MJ 65#88):

> Martin Stern wrote (MJ 67#87):
>> At my shul, they also announced that we would be reading the haftarah of 
>> Re'eh in addition to that of Ki Teitzei but DID NOT mention that the combined
>> haftarah is the same as that for NOACH which was the point I was raising. Did
>> they do so in Hillel's shul?
> At our small shul they did mention both, but it was a little like using the
> Haftorah for No'ach was a second choice although it was recommended.

While the Rabbi J. D. Hertz Chumash says nothing about this, the ArtScroll Stone
edition says that some congregations say the first and last verse of the
Haftorah for Rosh Chodesh (and also Machor HaChodesh) on Rosh Chodesh Elul and
says nothing about reading the regular Haftorah for Shabbos Rosh Chodesh (which
happens every time the fast of Tisha B'Av was postponed to the 10th of Av, and
the first day of Rosh Hashanah is on a Monday) let alone where is the best place
to look  for the Haftorah in a Chumash on Parshas Ki Teitzei, two weeks later.

This is not the practice I know, and I find proof of it in the 20 Elul/
September 16, 2022 issue of the English language Yated Ne'eman newspaper in
the Calendar Calculations column by Rabbi Dovid Haber on page 105.

It says there: The prevalent minhag of Bnei Ashkenaz is to lain the haftorah of
Hashomaym Kisee (the regular haftorah of Rosh Chodesh on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh Elul.

This is not the case with Sefardim or on other occasions where a special
Haftorah is read on Rosh Chodesh (Teves, the Adar in which Purim occurs, Nisan
and Av.)

The reason I heard given for reading the regular haftorah for Rosh Chodesh on
Rosh Chodesh Elul is that that too is taken from the same section of Isaiah as
the seven haftorahs Dinechemta after Tisha B'Av - and I suppose also because we
can read that section anyway, if we double up, so nothing is lost.


From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 18,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Muzinka

Joel Rich wrote (MJ 65#89):

> When the [Ukrainian] wedding celebrations were coming to the end (after a
> few days), wedding guests would put the parents of the bride or groom on a
> wagon and take them to the village inn (bar) for the so-called selling of the
>  parents, etc





From: Micha Berger <micha@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 21,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: Normative Law?

Joel Rich wrote (MJ 65#68):

> Sometimes it seems to me that there may have been original reasons for a
> practice but that practice then becomes something more like normative law
> detached from the reasons. An example might be turning around for lcha
> dodi. Originally the practice may  have been to face the west or to face
> the doors etc. but in many communities, it  just became to turn around.

It's minhag, not law, despite the wording in your subject line. The role of
mimeticism is more central than for halakhah.

Still, I think in this particular case, the masses are simply wrong. There is no
meaning to facing the back of the shul, rather than the west, particularly if
this is done regardless of whether the doors are in the back. (And even if they
happen to be in the back in your shul, that's incidental; the norm is to turn
around either way.)

There is a reason to face west. One might say that facing the entrance has a
similar symbolism. But to face the back regardless? Until we give it meaning,
can it be minhag?

I think a hanhagah needs some kind of significance to become a minhag. To pick
one of my usual examples: Milchigs on Shavuos apparenlyt started out being a way
to enjoy the Yom Tov with milk and cheese from the new spring grass (rather than
the drab dairy from hay you had all winder). Veharaayah, the Notzrim in the same
region where the minhag began had their dairy festival usually in the same week.
(Unless Pesach was in the 2nd month of Spring, then Easter and Pesach are a
month apart, and so too the subsequent holidays.) It was only once we came up
with connecitons to the Yom Tov, whether two force 2 meals, or to remember the
lack of kosher meat at Har Sinai, that just a logical practice became "Minhag".

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger 
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


From: Joel Rich <joelirarich@...>
Date: Tue, Sep 20,2022 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Proteksia

Your thoughts on the halachic appropriateness of this post which was on a
community list?

"A good friend had a bad fall, and was approved to get into xxxx rehab after her
surgery - but needs to wait for an available bed. Does anyone have proteksia -
someone who might be able to make this happen ASAP?"

Let's assume that this rehab has a waiting list, receives government funding and
has a standard protocol for allocating new beds to new clients.

Joel Rich


From: Micha Berger <micha@...>
Date: Wed, Sep 21,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Tainted money

Joel Rich wrote (MJ 65#71):

> I wonder in the case of a next generation inheriting a non-kosher
> steakhouse, if the parent's income is only from that steakhouse and they
> are giving money to the next generation now, is the next generation allowed
> to take those funds given that they know that it's coming from sale of
> forbidden items?

I would think the two possibilities are different:

Either they could use the money, or they don't inherit the steakhouse.

Issurei hana'ah are valueless and yerushah doesn't apply. Like if someone
dies on Pesach, their chameitz does not become their children's problem.
Noda beYehudah (MK OC 20)

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


From: Yisrael Medad  <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Sat, Sep 17,2022 at 04:17 PM
Subject: What is D'Oraita?

Chana Luntz asked (MJ 65#89) for a source for an "other opinion" I noted.

Here, at Chabad:

"The biblical commandments are the 613 mitzvot explicitly or implicitly
contained in the Five Books of Moses. The rabbinical commandments are the laws
instituted by sages throughout the generations."


I trust Chabad passes her perception of "classic Orthodox sources" and that
she halt her attempts to place Orthodox Jews out of the fold.

Yisrael Medad


End of Volume 65 Issue 90