Volume 66 Number 03 
      Produced: Thu, 20 Oct 22 07:17:10 -0400

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

A sukka under a high tree and a bracelet (2)
    [Yisrael Medad   Stuart Pilichowski]
Additions to shemoneh esrai 
    [Martin Stern]
Additions to shmoneh esrai 
    [David Tzohar]
Another approach to simchat torah (2)
    [Martin Stern  Yaakov Shachter]
Eating at other people's homes 
    [Robert Rubinoff]
Mezonot in the succah 
    [Martin Stern]
The Arovoh 
    [David Ansbacher]
Whose Hashgacha Does It Have? 
    [Prof. L. Levine]


From: Yisrael Medad  <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: A sukka under a high tree and a bracelet

Carl Singer relates (MJ 66#02):

> Many years ago we lived in a city without an Eruv. My wife wore a bracelet with
> a key 'charm' on it. Someone told her that this is carrying and thus
> inappropriate for Shabbos. Her response was "WHO ASKED YOU!""

May we ask Carl to ask his wife what her response would have been if the
question had been phrased:

"That's a great way to get around the prohibition of carrying. Who provided you
with the heter?"

Yisrael Medad

From: Stuart Pilichowski <stupillow@...>
Date: Thu, Oct 20,2022 at 01:17 AM
Subject: A sukka under a high tree and a bracelet

In response to Carl Singer (MJ 65#02):

I think its wonderful and very caring of someone to approach if they think a
wrong is happening. Of course, the approach must be with grace and dignity.

Too often, unfortunately, this is not the case and thus - the worst case
scenario - a chilul hashem is perpetrated and a holier than thou scene occurs.

Stuart Pilichowski

Mevaseret Zion, Israel

Phone 972- 527-222-827


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Thu, Oct 20,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: Additions to shemoneh esrai

Joel Rich wrote (MJ 66#02):

> When you add to the shmoneh esrai, do you articulate words or just think
> thoughts? (e.g. do you actually say the words, please send a refuah shleimah
> for Avraham ben Sarah, or do you simply think those words or about that
> individual??

Basically, Joel is referring to the principle "devarim shebeleiv einam
devarim [anything not articulated is not taken into account]". But this
principle only applies to bein adam lechavero [dealings between people] not
bein adam lemakom [dealings between man and G-d] because "kelapei shemaya
galya [G-d knows one's innermost thoughts]".

However, it might still be worthwhile to articulate these added requests as that
makes a greater impact on the person praying who might thereby put more effort
into them.

Martin Stern


From: David Tzohar <davidtzohar@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 06:17 PM
Subject: Additions to shmoneh esrai

R'Joel Rich asked (MJ 66#02) if one makes additions to the shmoneh esrei do they
have to be articulated or is it enough to think thoughts?

One of my main Rebeim,the Slonim Rebbe of Rechovot, would tell us over and over:

"Prayer is not silent meditation, nor is it a sing along. It is the innermost
cry of our divine soul through our lips unto Hashem."

If we believe that we were judged on Rosh Hashanah and our fate was sealed on
Yom Kippur, how do we have the audacity to come before Him three times a day
with our personal requests? It is only because, as  R'Kook ZTZ"L taught (Orot
Hatefilla, introduction), that our prayer cries out to Hashem that we are not
the same person we were at our last prayer. This must be articulated as we
learned from  Chana's prayer " - Her lips moved but they made no sound, and G-d
heard = Shemuel. We must form every word and hope that G-d will read our lips
and grant us mercy.


R' David Yitzchak Tzohar-Yerushalayim

David Tzohar


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 08:17 AM
Subject: Another approach to simchat torah

David Tzohar wrote (MJ 66#02):

> Ashkenazi communities especially chassidim have a custom of making "LeCHaYiM"
> on an alcoholic beverage before and during the HaKaFoT.

This is definitely NOT the custom of those Ashkenazim who come from the
Gemanophone lands. I don't know how one can eat or drink anything after davening
shacharit before making kiddush. I have heard that some people do make kiddush
on a shot of whiskey but I don't know how they justify it when drinking less
than a revi'it (or at least melo lugmav [a cheekful]). Perhaps someone can
enlighten me on this.

> It seems that they have applied the custom of CHaYaV INiSH LiVeSSuMai (one is
> obligated to get intoxicated) from Purim.

This is not the only interpretation of this rabbinic adage. According to the
Rema it means one should drink sufficient to become drowsy and fall asleep
and thus be incapable of distinguishing Arur Mordekhai from Barukh Haman (or
is it the other way round)! To extend the interpretation of this practice,
which is strictly restricted to Purim, to require actual intoxication at
other times is doubtful.

> As ChaZaL said "AiN SiMCHA BLI BaSaR VeYaYin" (there is no joy without meat
> and wine". The beverage in Ashkenaz was schnapps, i.e. distilled liquor
> usually whisky, brandy or slivovitz; all approximately 80% alcohol.

Chazal only stated that joy required wine not other intoxicating beverages.

> After seven shots of schnapps there is a lot of SiMCHA!!!

This is NOT simchah but DRUNKENNESS which is generally forbidden because it
can lead to dire consequences, even the transgressing one of the cardinal
prohibitions, to avoid which a Jew must rather give up his life and for which a
non-Jew is put to death, as happened to Lot.

Martin Stern

From: Yaakov Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Another approach to simchat torah

David Tzohar wrote (MJ 65#02):
> BTW since about 15% of Ashkenazim are genetically allergic to
> alcohol ...

No, they are not.  There is no such as being allergic to alcohol. Neither
ethanol nor any other alcohols are complicated enough to produce an immune
response -- they don't even have nitrogen atoms. The notion that ethanol could
activate either pattern recognition receptors, or antigen receptors, has no
basis in reality.

(There are people who are addicted to ethanol, who develop both a tolerance to
it and a physical dependance on it; but to call ethanol addiction an "allergy"
is to utter a false, and, in fact, a preposterous, statement.)

Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 North Whipple Street
Chicago IL  60645-4111
(1-773)7613784   landline
(1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice


From: Robert Rubinoff <rubinoff@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 03:17 PM
Subject: Eating at other people's homes

Prof. L. Levine wrote (MJ 65#96):

> While one may hold that all the members in the shul have a chezkat kashrut,
> this does not mean that everyone has the same kashrus standards. There are
> many hashgachas, and they do not have the same standards. I personally rely
> on the OU and 3 heimishe hashgachas only. I know that most people do not do
> what I do regarding kashrus, and that is certainly their prerogative.  They
> may indeed have a "chezkat kashrut", but it is not the same as my personal
> standards, so I do not eat in other people's homes.

I hope that R. Levine realizes that he in fact is relying on a lot of other
hechsherim - as (if my understanding is correct) the OU, OK, Star-K, and Kaf-K
generally rely on each other - so if you are eating food with an OU hechsher,
some of the ingredients may have been certified by the other hechshers. (And I
suspect that the providers certified by the heimishe hechshers use ingredients
certified by other hechshers - but in particular I think that the big 4 trust
each other.) Of course, there are some specific issues where they have different
opinions, so they make sure to avoid items that raise those issues. But, in
general, food production nowadays is often a very complicated, world-wide process
and you can't assume that every ingredient was supervised by the hechsher that
oversees the final product.



From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Wed, Oct 19,2022 at 08:17 AM
Subject: Mezonot in the succah

Haim Snyder wrote (MJ 65#02):
> Martin Stern (MJ 65#99) seems to postulate that one must eat mezonot in the
> succah in order to make the bracha LeiSheiv Basuccah.

I am not sure what Haim means by this. What I was asking is whether eating
mezonot, as opposed to pat haba bekisnin, required sitting in the succah. I cited

>> The practical difference would be whether one would make 'leishev besuccah'
>> when eating pasta outside a bread meal.

because of 'safeik berakhah [doubt as to the necessity of making that berakhah]'
in which case one would not make it.

I agree with him that there are opinions that one does not need to eat anything
to make the berakhah, even if one were merely intending to sit or sleep there.
However the general practice, at least lekhatchilah [ab initio], is to be
koveia' [attach] the berakhah on the visible act of eating something that was
required to be eaten in the succah, as I wrote:

>> I think that bediavad [ex post facto] these might not be a problem because we
>> only make the berakhah when having a meal, rather than when just sitting in
>> the succah, because eating a meal is a more fixed situation [keviut], but we
>> could, theoretically, do so if we intend to stay in the succah for an
>> extended time.

So my question should perhaps have been phrased as "If one wishes to make
the berakhah 'leishev besuccah' can one, lekhatchilah, do so by eating pasta
outside a bread meal.

Martin Stern


From: David Ansbacher <dansba1944@...>
Date: Thu, Oct 20,2022 at 06:17 AM
Subject: The Arovoh

It seems to have become a minhag to put the Arovos on top of the Oron Hakodesh.
I was totally unaware of this minhag until I went to Yeshivah. 

On Shemini Atzeres, I heard a cute reason for this minhag although I still won't
do it.

After we have finished using the arba minim, we don't just throw them away. The
Esrog can be eaten (jam) and we make a brochoh on it, the Hadassim can be used
for besomim and we make a brochoh on it, the Lulav can be used to burn the
chometz and we make a brochoh when doing so. The poor Arovoh is beaten on the
ground and no brochoh is made. Therefore some people felt that they should
elevate the poor broken Arovos by putting them on top of the Aron Hakodesh.

Wishing you all a Guten Vinter.


From: Prof. L. Levine <llevine@...>
Date: Sun, Oct 16,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Whose Hashgacha Does It Have?

Meir Shinnar wrote (MJ 66#02):

> I would argue further.  RYL has given the list of hashgachot that he trusts -
> and has argued that the others are not reliable.  Whether he chooses to eat a
> hashgacha is his business.  However to declare other hashgachot unreliable has
> significant halachic issues of being motzi la'az [defamation] and choshed
> biksherim [suspecting the righteous of evil doing] - and mail-jewish is being
> party to this by allowing him to spread unsubstantiated rumors.

The hashgachos that I do not use simply do not meet my personal standards. I
have never asserted that they are unreliable. Many may view them as reliable and
that is their prerogative.

> I would think that the rumor spreading is far more halachically problematic
> - and lashon hara [gossip] is problematic for both the one who talks and the
> one who listens or spreads it - than those who follow the Shulchan Aruch that
> eid echad ne'eman beissurim"

I am not spreading rumors, and I apologize if you viewed my approach to kashrus
in that way.  Again, many others may choose to use many other supervisions, and
that is certainly their prerogative.

> I would add that the only evidence adduced by him is a statement of an
> anonymous rav from a competing hashgacha who is noge'a badavar [has a conflict
> of interest] - and does not name any specific hashgacha for which this is a
> problem.  If I have to choose an anonymous conflicted rav with general
> complaints and the Shulchan Aruch - I will choose the Shulchan Aruch..."

I have spent years learning about the ins and outs of kashrus, and my standards
are based on these endeavors. They are in accordance with the Shulchan Aruch,
and I find it surprising for you to imply otherwise in light of your email. I do
find that many others simply rely on Rav Alle (Alle essen du) and, IMO this is
a mistake.

Please see

1. Kashrus Confusion in Brooklyn


The Hamodia Readers' Forum, July 7, 2004, page A 72.

2. Is This Simcha Really a Simcha?


The Jewish Press, June 17, 2005, page 1.

Professor Yitzchok Levine


End of Volume 66 Issue 3