Volume 66 Number 11 
      Produced: Sun, 06 Nov 22 03:58:44 -0500

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul (4)
    [Leah Gordon  Yisrael Medad   Shlomo Di Veroli  Michael Poppers]
Halachos Pertaining to Travel (2)
    [Irwin Weiss  Lawrence Israel]
Inaudible Mi shebairachs 
    [Martin Stern]
Mashiv haru'ach (was Kavod habriot - human dignity) 
    [Haim Snyder]
To Give Charity or Not? 
    [Stuart Pilichowski]
What is D'Oraita? 
    [Meir Shinnar]
What Kind Of a Wedding Is It? 
    [Prof. L. Levine]


From: Leah Gordon <leahgordonmobile@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 12:17 PM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

Yitzchok Levine writes (MJ 66#10):

> ...
> Shulchan Aruch states clearly that women are obligated too. The Mishna Berura
> elaborates on this point and reiterates that women have equal requirements for
> all aspects of Shabbat. Furthermore, women were equal beneficiaries of the
> miracle of the Manna, this being a/the source for Shalosh Seudos. Women should
> take this mitzva seriously, especially in families where the men have Seudah
> Shlishis in shul between Mincha and Maariv. Many women in that setting feel it
> unnecessary for them to have the third Shabbat meal.
> See https://www.ou.org/holidays/seuda_shlishit_shalosh_sudot/
> In light of the above. I wonder if the practice of men eating Seudah Shelishis
> in shul should be discontinued. What do others on Mail Jewish think?

I was with you right up until the second-to-last sentence. Why on earth would
the conclusion be that eating in shul should be discontinued?  Why not invite
the full community to participate?  Surely there is a burden of preparing this
meal which the shul is now carrying, and that burden should not be shifted to
"women" to make sure they are eating (!).

From: Yisrael Medad  <yisrael.medad@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 05:17 PM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

Prof. Levine asks (MJ 66#10), after assuming that women mostly do not eat Seuda
Shlishit on Shabbat at home, "I wonder if the practice of men eating Seudah
Shelishis in shul should be discontinued. What do others on Mail Jewish think?"

I think:

a) I am not sure whether or not his presumption is correct.

b) I have been at many American shuls that for decades have had joint gender
meals together.

c) I also know women who watch their weight and do not eat Seudah Shlishit of
their own volition and I wouldn't deign to interfere with their decision,
Halacha or no Halacha.

d) as for preventing men from eating the meal at the shul: silly idea.

Yisrael Medad

From: Shlomo Di Veroli <shlomodiveroli@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 06:17 PM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

Unfortunately, the synagogue that I attend does not even offer seudah shlishith.
I am usually the loner among 20 men who eats a morsel of bread or a leftover
piece of cake. It's quite sad actually.

Shlomo Di Veroli

From: Michael Poppers <the65pops@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 10:17 PM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

Prof. Levine posits (MJ 66#10) a connection between a shul serving S'udah
Shlishis and women (who, to paraphrase his post, generally do not attend such an
event) not eating S'udah Shlishis at all.  He did not demonstrate, nor do I
perceive, such a connection, any more than there's a connection between a shul
not serving S'udah Shlishis (which was the case for many shuls during the height
of the CoViD-19 pandemic that before the pandemic did serve S'udah Shlishis) and
men not eating S'udah Shlishis at all; and in my personal experience, when I eat
S'udah Shlishis at home rather than at Shul, I'm eating it earlier in the day,
at a time when my wife chooses not to join me.

A gut'n Shabbes
and all the best from

Michael Poppers 
Elizabeth, NJ, USA


From: Irwin Weiss <irwin@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Halachos Pertaining to Travel

With regard to Martin Stern's posting of various rules and suggestions as to
pedestrian and motorist safety, I would say first that I agree that one should
exercise caution when using roadways.

I don't see how anyone could disagree. In my former neighborhood, the sidewalks
were not in terribly good shape, and thus, it did make it difficult for
strollers to be pushed on them.  Also, I had the thought that when a few people
walked together on Shabbat on the sidewalk, there was a possibility that one
would have to, or would inadvertently, step off the sidewalk onto the adjacent
grass.  This pushed the grass down. I heard someone say that this was a
forbidden melacha (type of work) on Shabbat, because it would be sowing or
planting. That seemed to be an excuse to walk in the road to me, but I thought I
would mention it.

Irwin Weiss
Baltimore, MD

From: Lawrence Israel <larry.israel@...>
Date: Fri, Nov 4,2022 at 08:17 AM
Subject: Halachos Pertaining to Travel

In response to Martin Stern (MJ 66#10):
Funny story about children teaching children to cross properly. One Shabbos,
about 47 years ago, we were walking on Herzl (Rehovot's main street). To reach
our apartment we had to cross Herzl, and walk past it a bit. Our five-year old
was running ahead. Stopped at the corner where we had to cross, and waited. Then
he crossed the road by himself. When we got to him we told him that he was too
young to cross by himself.
He then pointed to the pedestrian signal and said, "But you told me we have to
wait for the green man in order to cross").


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Fri, Nov 4,2022 at 08:17 AM
Subject: Inaudible Mi shebairachs

I have noticed that here is a tendency for the gabbai to recite misheberachs
in an undertone so that nobody can hear the name of the person mentioned
nor, for that matter, the purpose of the misheberach. I always thought that
this was not correct, so I was pleased to read Rabbi Yair Hoffman's article
on VINnews today:

> https://vinnews.com/2022/11/03/rav-aharon-kotler-ztl-president-eisenhower-and-
> hilchos-mi-shbairach/

In it he writes:
> What follows is a brief overview of some of the halachos of reciting a Mi
> shbairach.
> 1. The Aruch HaShulchan (OC 215:1) writes that if we answer Amain to a Mi
> shbairach for a sick person, we fulfill the Torah Mitzvah of Vahavta
> laraiyacha kamocha.
> 2. The Mi shbairach should be recited out loud so that the Rabbim can answer
> amain and that it will be counted a tefilas Rabbim.
> 3. The Gemorah in Brachos (7b) states that the meaning of term ais ratzon in
> the verse, vaAni, sefilasi, lecha Hashem ais ratzon, is when the tzibbur, the
> public is davening for someone or something.  Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
> (Halichos Shlomo chapter 8, 22:61) explained that the benefit of having a
> Tzibbur pray for a person is when they hear who they are davening for and have
> intent for that person.
> 4. We bless those who are ill and pray for a complete recovery for them in
> between the aliyos when the sefer Torah is read.
> ...

Have others had a similar experience and what is their opinion on this practice?

Martin Stern


From: Haim Snyder <haimsny@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Mashiv haru'ach (was Kavod habriot - human dignity)

In MJ 66#10 there were 2 items which use the words "mashiv haru'ach" as if that
is what is said in the winter only.

That is not true. According to the Vilna Gaon and others, in both the summer and
winter we say "mashiv haru'ach" and only the last word tells the season (hatal
or hagashem).

I draw your attention to the fact that in both Tfilat Geshem and Tfilat Tal we
say "mashiv haru'ach umorid" and only the next word changes, depending on
whether we're saying it on the first day of Pesah or on Shmini Atzeret.

Since I, along with 2 others in my shul, say "mashiv haru'ach umorid hatal", I
usually avoid being the shaliach tzibbur until Shavuot so that people won't
presume that I'm making a mistake and shout out morid hatal. In our shul, the
signs say morid hatal or morid hagashem, without the words mashiv haru'ach on
either of them.


Haim Shalom Snyder

Petah Tikva


From: Stuart Pilichowski <stupillow1@...>
Date: Fri, Nov 4,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: To Give Charity or Not?

What's my responsibility to giving tsedaka [charity] to one who comes to my door
or to my synagogue? Am I required to give something - anything?

Am I permitted to excuse myself because they look like someone who has very
different values and mode of living than I do? Meaning "they look like they
don't go to, or send their kids to, the Army or National Service", or "they look
like they haven't received a basic secular education".

If my personal funds are limited, and not endless, may I reserve the right to
give my tsedaka money to those in my camp?


From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@...>
Date: Sat, Nov 5,2022 at 08:17 PM
Subject: What is D'Oraita?

There was a discussion a while back (up to MJ 65#94) about the nature of
conversion, and two issues were discussed:

1) Whether everything in the oral law, not explicit in the Torah, is necessarily

2) Claim that conversion is not mentioned in the (written) Torah.

WRT first claim, it is well known that the Rambam in is Sefer Hamitzvot, holds
that any mitzvah that is derived by the 13 middot (hermeneutical principles), is
midivrei sofrim.

There is controversy over what that means.  Rav Kafih zt"l is explicit that the
Rambam held that anything so derived is derabbanan, not d'oraita, unless there
is explicit proof that Chazal viewed the mitzvah as d'oraita.  A nice discussion
of the is in rav Kafih's massive commentary to the Mishneh Torah, beginning of
Hilchot Ishut, where he shows how, based on different manuscript editions, the
Rambam gradually changed his mind on whether kiddushin (marriage) with money is
d'oraita or derabbanan - he initially held it was derabbanan, in spite of an
explicit drasha, but changed his mind.

My sense is that Rav Kafih's position on how to understand the Rambam may be a
minority position today, but I would hope people here would not write him out of

WRT second claim / issue is the the term ger has multiple possible meanings, so
it is difficult to be sure that it actually refers to a convert rather than
other forms of gerut.  The Sifre (and the Rambam in Hilkhot Issurei Biah, as
well as well as Rav Saadiah Gaon's translation (Bamidbar 15:15) as referring
explicitly to a convert (see the next few verses)

However, even if one argues about whether a particular use of ger refers to a
convert, the concept of joining Am Yisrael is explicit in the Torah.

There are various nations we are told can not join Am Yisrael.  For two,
Mitzraim (Egypt) and Edom, we are told (Deuteronomy 23:9) "banim asher yivaldu
lahem dor shlishi yavo bikehal Hashem [Children that will be born to them - the
third generation can come in to the community of Hashem.]

This seems a clear statement of the possibility of conversion - and for those
not from a problematic nation (today everyone) - this can happen immediately.
The process is not detailed - as in many other commandments - but the concept is
clearly stated

I would add that this is probably why the Rambam puts the whole discussion of
conversion in Issurei Biah (forbidden relations) - and starts off the discussion
of conversion precisely with a discussion of who is forbidden.

Meir Shinnar


From: Prof. L. Levine <llevine@...>
Date: Thu, Nov 3,2022 at 11:17 AM
Subject: What Kind Of a Wedding Is It?

When was the last time you heard a Dvar Torah at a Chassana? This is something
that has in general gone by the board at Yeshivish and Chassidic weddings. Is it
proper to not have a Dvar Torah at an Orthodox wedding?

The following is from page 518 of Rav Breuer's Essays:

There are certain practices that might be interpreted as a deviation from the
characteristic atmosphere of our Kehilla. We are concerned with the custom that
calls for vigorous "mitzvah dancing" during the festive wedding meal but does
not provide an opportunity for a single D'var Torah (either under the chuppah or
during the meal). This practice directly contrasts with the admonition of our
Sages, which characterizes any meal, particularly a festive one, as a "meal of
the dead," if it is not accompanied by words of Torah (Pirkei Avos 3:4).

Professor Yitzchok Levine


End of Volume 66 Issue 11