Volume 66 Number 14 
      Produced: Thu, 10 Nov 22 11:40:56 -0500

Subjects Discussed In This Issue:

Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul (3)
    [Alan Rubin  Menashe Elyashiv  Prof. L. Levine]
Inaudible Mi shebairachs 
    [Martin Stern]
Mashiv haru'ach 
    [Martin Stern]
Two days Yom Tov (was Yash for kiddush) 
    [Menashe Elyashiv]
Walking through a crosswalk on Shabbat in Israel (2)
    [Yaakov Shachter  Lawrence Israel]


From: Alan Rubin <alan@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

In response to Prof Levine (MJ 66#10):

I suggest that this is an example of a conflict between a mimetic tradition and
a text based approach. Prof Levine takes a text based approach according to
which eating seudah shlishit is mandated by halacha for everyone. On the other
hand, there is a well established tradition in many holy Jewish communities to
celebrate seudah shlishit in shul. I remember as a child regularly going with my
grandfather to seudah shlishit in his shtibel. I think that the participants
would have given Prof Levine's concerns short shrift.

From: Menashe Elyashiv <menely2@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 66#13):

> Professor Levine is partially correct that the eating of Seudah Shlishit is
> an obligation due to the halakhah of oneg Shabbat. In fact, the
> m'haber/author of the Shulhan Arukh writes (OH 281:1): "One should be careful
> to fulfill Seudah Shlishit even if he is satiated (from lunch) - he can fulfill
> this obligation by eating [only] an egg ...

The correct quote is from OH 291:1, ..."the wise in his eyes should not
fill himself at the morning meal", not lunch. In our western style of life,
we start our day late, pray late, and eat late, usually after a Kiddush. No
surprise that is difficult  to eat Seudah Shlishit. Be wise, early to rise,
eat a minimum at Kiddush, have Seudah in the morning, and even in the short
days have Seudah Shlishit. (Sometimes we are able to have a "milky" SS)

From: Prof. L. Levine <llevine@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Eating Seudah Shelishis in Shul

R Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 66#13):

> Speaking for myself, I haven't eaten Shalosh Seudah for years.   I am still
> full of lunch whether it is the winter or the summer.   So, I, unlike Prof
> Levine, do not force myself to eat shalosh seudah.   Instead, I open a sefer
> (a religious text) and learn.  It is much better for the mind and the
> waistline.
> Yet, on the other hand, there are numerous others who look forward to s'eudah
> shlishit.  I say, "eilu v'eilu divrei E-lokim hayim (both are the words of a
> living God, viz, both are acceptable).

As a fellow former MA resident (I lived in Chelsea, MA until I was 8 and then in
Marblehead, MA) let me suggest a simple solution that will allow you to eat
Seudah Shlishis every Shabbos.

I daven every Shabbos morning in a Hashkama Minyan. We start at 7:15 and finish
in general by about 9.  There is some singing, but not a lot. I give a short
Dvar Torah that lasts about 3 minutes. There is rarely a Kiddush. People come to
daven, not to eat.

I get home at about 9:30 and then make Kiddush. During the longer days I eat
some mezonos and, of course, some herring.  We eat lunch at about 12:30. The
meal is over in an hour to an hour and a half.  When Shabbos ends late I find it
easy to eat a third meal at 7 or later.

During the winter when the days are short, I also get home at about 9:30 and
make Kiddush. However, on these days I wash and then eat my herring. (Eating
herring on Shabbos is a long-standing tradition in some circles.)  Again, lunch
starts at about 12:30 and on these days it is Seudah Shlishis!

Davening early on Shabbos morning has advantages. In the summer, when it is hot,
you go to shul before the heat reaches its zenith.  In the winter, when the days
are short, you actually have time on Shabbos morning and afternoon.

Last week, before the clock was turned, we had about 30 men at the minyan. This
week, with EST in effect, I expect we will have even more people at the minyan.

Hence, WADR, I suggest that you start davening on Shabbos morning at an early
minyan. Then you will probably be able to easily eat Seudah Shlishis.

Of course, this is free advice, and, as they say, "You get what you pay for!"

Professor Yitzchok Levine


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, Nov 8,2022 at 11:17 AM
Subject: Inaudible Mi shebairachs

Chaim Casper wrote (MJ 66#13):

> Martin Stern notes (MJ 66#11) that there "is a tendency for the gabbai to
> recite misheberachs in an undertone so that nobody can hear the name of the
> person mentioned nor, for that matter, the purpose of the misheberach."
> ...
> The second mi shebayrakh prayer we recite is on behalf of the sick in the
> community.  Rabbi Schechter has ruled that this prayer should be recited
> quietly as we do not want to publicize that someone is ill.
> ...

I cannot understand the reasoning behind this. On the contrary I think one
should publicise that someone is ill so that people will do the mitzvah of
bikkur cholim [visiting the sick] or, at the very least, enquire about the
sick person which will give them some encouragement that people are
concerned about them. They might even be able to do something practical to help,
like helping with shopping, but, if nobody knows that someone is ill, they
cannot do anything for them, not even say tehillim [psalms] for their speedy

On the other hand, even if a specific sick person may not wish to have their
illness publicised (perhaps because they do not want vistors for some
reason), there is also a misheberach recited for a yoledet [a woman who has
given birth], which I have noticed also gets said inaudibly. I would imagine
that her husband or father wants everyone to know of the birth yet I have
often had to ask afterwards who it was who had had a baby and whether it was a
boy or girl, so that I could wish him mazal tov!

Martin Stern


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 07:17 AM
Subject: Mashiv haru'ach

Haim Shalom Snyder wrote (MJ 66#13):

> ...
> I understand Ashkenazim who don't say morid hatal in the summer, since tal is
> expected all year long and, in birkat hashanim in the summer we don't say
> "v'tain tal l'vracha" just "v'tain bracha". However, referring to the
> insertion in the winter as mashiv haru'ach, in my opinion, misses the point.

Haim is quite right but unfortunately the general practice is to refer to it
(probably wrongly) as 'mashiv haru'ach' and, to borrow a phrase from elsewhere,
"minhag oker din [custom overrides the strict rule]".

Martin Stern


From: Menashe Elyashiv <menely2@...>
Date: Tue, Nov 8,2022 at 04:17 AM
Subject: Two days Yom Tov (was Yash for kiddush)

Chana Luntz wrote (MJ 66#08):

> In response to Meir Shinnar (MJ 66#04):
> I think what we are grappling with here is the reality that certain 
> established minhagim [customs], at times, directly cut across the din halacha.
> How we deal with situations where the minhag seems to directly cut across the
> halacha is a fascinating one.  But this is by no means an isolated case. In
> fact, particularly in Ashkenaz, it is really rather common.
> ...
> And while the Sephardim do this far more rarely, they are not exempt from it
> either.  For example take the keeping of two days by tourists in Eretz 
> Yisrael.  Clearly this was not done at the time of the Beit Hamikdash - where
> those who were oleh regel [who made the pilgrimage for the festivals] from
> Bavel did not stay an extra day in Jerusalem as against those who make the
> pilgrimage from Eretz Yisrael.  And of course by keeping second day Yom Tov in
> Eretz Yisrael, men at least are mevatel [nullify] the mitzvah of tefillin when
> it would otherwise apply as well as a host of other issues that would seem to
> be somewhat problematic in halacha.

Two days in temple time?? The two days started at the end of the Tannaim period,
when the Cutim ruined the "torch system", that sent the right date of Rosh
Chodesh to Bavel.


From: Yaakov Shachter <jay@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 10:17 AM
Subject: Walking through a crosswalk on Shabbat in Israel

Avraham Friedenberg wrote (MJ 66#13):
> Are we in Israel allowed to walk through a crosswalk on Shabbat if a motor
> vehicle must slow or come to a complete stop? I'm not asking about a
> crosswalk with a traffic light, because the cars will stop due to the red
> light, not because someone is crossing. I'm asking about a crosswalk where
> cars make right turns, where motor vehicles must yield to pedestrians.
> I ask specifically about Israel, because the majority of drivers will be
> Jewish.  If I walk through a crosswalk as a motor vehicle approaches, I am
> causing the driver to slow down or stop (increasing the time s/he is
> mechaleil Shabbat [violating the halachot of Shabbat] while driving, and
> causing the driver to activate/deactivate brake lights, etc.

Why do you ask specifically about Israel?  It is just as forbidden in Chicago. 
Amira l'nokhri [asking a non-Jew to do melachah for oneself] is Rabbinically
forbidden, and causing a Jew to sin is also only Rabbinically forbidden, unless
he would not sin otherwise (in which case it is Scripturally forbidden).  Nor
can you reasonably say that you are not engaged in amira; if you walk in front
of a moving car, you clearly want it stop, eyn amira gdola mizzoth [there is no
greater amira than this].

Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 North Whipple Street
Chicago IL  60645-4111
(1-773)7613784   landline
(1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice

From: Lawrence Israel <larry.israel@...>
Date: Mon, Nov 7,2022 at 01:17 PM
Subject: Walking through a crosswalk on Shabbat in Israel

I try not to make a car stop, but to cross with others who are crossing. If none
are, I try to turn around and face away from the street, so that the driver does
not think that I am waiting to cross. Drivers might appreciate it even were I to
do this on weekdays as well.


End of Volume 66 Issue 14