Volume 7 Number 16

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Changes in Hechsherim at Pesach Time
         [Yosef Branse]
Louisville, Kentucky
         [Finley Shapiro]
Rav Publications
         [Arnold Lustiger]
Rav Soloveitchik
         [Eli Turkel]
Rav's Publications and Issues of Kavod
         [Jeff Woolf]
Two Questions about the Rav
         [Dave Novak]
Yeshiva Flaming
         [Anthony Fiorino]


From: <JODY@...> (Yosef Branse)
Date: Sun, 2 May 93 01:46:58 -0400
Subject: Changes in Hechsherim at Pesach Time

I am curious about a situation that recurs annually around Pesach time.
Numerous products, which carry "mehadrin hechsherim" (stricter than
usual kashrut supervision) during the rest of the year, no longer carry
the stamp of the supervising organization. They may or may not carry the
certification "Kosher for Pesach" from a different supervisory body,
usually a municipal Rabbinate.

The products with this packaging are in the shops before, during and for
some time after Pesach, until, in virtually all cases, they resume
appearing with the standard "mehadrin" hechsher.

This raises two questions:

1) What exactly does it mean when the original hechsher is removed
before Pesach? Is the product being prodcued from exactly the same
ingredients, but because they are not kosher for Pesach (or not
considered so by the "mehadrin" supervision), they cannot bear the usual
hechsher? Or is there some change in the ingredients to make the product
suitable for Pesach use? If the former, then it would be OK to continue
using the product before and after Pesach. If the latter, it might be
necessary to look into the alternative ingredients.

2) Assuming that a product undergoes some change in its "recipe" before
Pesach, what is the status of items we find in the shops during the days
and weeks AFTER Pesach? Are these the remaining stock of the Pesach
production run? Or are they the first output of a post-Pesach production
but marketed in the Pesach-period packaging until the remaining stock of
that packaging is used up?

Of course, one can always call up the supervisory organization, and ask
for the details on particular products. I have done this myself in the
past. I'm just wondering to what extent it is possible to generalize.

I realize that this is a pretty broad question, and there may not be any
single answer. It is logical to assume in (2) that for some time after
Pesach the shops carry BOTH leftover products from Pesach runs, and the
first examples of the post-holiday output.

I'd appreciate hearing from people who may have looked into this in the
past, and can share the results of their inquiries.

Yosef Branse, Univ. of Haifa Library (<JODY@...>)


From: Finley Shapiro <Finley_Shapiro@...>
Date: Tue, 4 May 93 15:17:41 -0400
Subject: Louisville, Kentucky

I just found out that I need to spend Shabbat of May14-15 in Louisville,
Kentucky.  I would be most thankful for any information on the Jewish
community there, including a convenient hotel.  My last day at home
before the trip is May 10th.

Finley Shapiro
(215) 545-4364


From: Arnold Lustiger <ALUSTIG@...>
Date: Tue, 4 May 93 10:15:58 -0400
Subject: Rav Publications

I have just found a reference to articles written by the Rav which I
have not yet seen, and would like to add one which I have which has not
yet appeared in any of the lists posted thus far:

According to an article in the American Jewish Times, in 1986, the
inaugural edition of "Beit Yosef Shaul"- Journal of Studies in Halakha
issued by the Gruss Kolel at YU featured 6 guest commentaries by the
Rav. In addition, in 1985, YU published a hagadah with an essay on
Yetziat Mitzrayim by the Rav

The June 1966 issue of Gesher has an article written by the Rav called
"Sacred and Profane, Kodesh and Chol in World Perspectives".

If someone could provide me a copy of the Beit Yosef Shaul or Hagadah
essays, I would be happy to reciprocate with a copy of the Gesher

Arnie Lustiger


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 17:22:36 +0300
Subject: Rav Soloveitchik

      I wish to thank the various people who have offered corrections and
additions to my list of books of R. Soloveitchik. This are all being
incorporated in a corrected list which I would send to anyone interested.

[Eli, please send a copy to the list, and I will put it up for archive
retreival by those that wish. In addition, here is one I did not see
mentioned in the earlier messages. In the introduction to Lonely Man of
Faith, the editor of Tradition says that this is the second article from
the Rav, the first being an essay entitled "Confrontation" and published
in the Summer 1964 Tradition. An additional item I am less sure I
remember correctly. I was visiting with Dr. Moshe Bernstein over
Shabbat, and he said that there is a published hespad the Rav gave for
R' Chaim Ozer, I think. I don't remember where Moshe said it was
published. Moshe - could you send it in? Mod.]

       Also, is there anyone on the list from Montreal who knows Lawrence
Kaplan and could find out if he has an email address at McGill so I can
track down some of his writings about R. Soloveitchik.

Eli Turkel


From: Jeff Woolf <JRWOOLF@...>
Date: Sat, 1 May 93 17:11:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Rav's Publications and Issues of Kavod

I have to preface my remarks by saying that it is personally gratifying
for me to see the intense discussion surrounding the Rav. I profoundly
hope it continues.
    Now for some tachlis:

    1) There is no extant translation of UVikashtem MiSham. Neither do I
expect that there will be one soon. Having been involved in translating
the Rav's writings I can tell you that his style is very very allusive
and hard to capture in another tongue. It gives 'Tradicere Traducere' a
whole new dimension of meaning.--Also, I remember hearing (indirectly)
that the Rav was very upset when Lonely Man of Faith was translated into
English. The word was that he felt that if he'd wanted it in Hebrew he'd
have written it that way.  V'Hamevin Yavin.

   2) Now, I certainly understand the dismay of some there is alot of
heat beig applied to the 'heads' of the Yeshivot for their Bizzayon
HaTorah. Let me just say this, without indulging in invective. You can
have a difference of opinion in Torah or Hashkafah without being
abusive.For example, the Satmarer Rebbe differed with Reb Moshe
Feinstein zt'l in all sorts of things but still gave the eulogy at his
funeral. That's the way of Torah. The Rav, however, despite his being
acknowledged as the greatest Rosh Yeshiva and Maggid Shiur in the world,
was given nothing but abuse. When he took the decent path of attending
the funeral of Reb Aaron Kotler (with whom he had a warm relationship;
and was even closer with Reb Shneur ztl) he was accosted and roughed up
by the [... deleted - M] of Lakewood. And so it went.---So please forgive
the Rav's talmidim for having less forbeaerance than he himself had. We
loved him too much to see the abuse perpetuated further and hence the
anger...In the same way, as DR Lamm said, I believe that the Rav's
talmidim will fight against the revisionism which will attempt to carve
him up to fit into some sort of Mtat Sdom/Procrustean bed...On the
bottom line, though, it IS true that his Torah in the wide and the
narrow senses will be the guide of his talmidim, who (as he once
remarked) know the truth and don't need to look right or left to know
which direction to take in the Service of God. Shabbat Shalom.

                                                              Jeff Woolf


From: Dave Novak <novak@...>
Date: Sat, 1 May 93 17:11:04 -0400
Subject: Two Questions about the Rav

Several posts concerning Rav Soloveitchik zt"l have alluded to
issues that I do not know very much about.  If someone believes that
they can discuss theses issues in a way that is understandable and that
has a proper degree of kavod (honor) for all of those involved, I would
appreciate reading their comments.  These issues are:

	1.  The nature of "the Torah of Brisk": what is most essential to the
	teachings and manner of teaching embodied in Briskers in general and
	the Rav in particular?  How does this differ from other "schools"?
	Exactly what was Rav Aharon asking us to preserve?

	2.  What are the reasons that other great Rabbis opposed the teachings
	of the Rav?  What were they objecting to and why would this opposition
	have been as strong as has been implied?

[I will re-emphasize the statement above asking for any replies to have
"a proper degree of kavod (honor) for all of those involved", especially
as relates to #2. I will carefully read any replies before it goes on
the list. Mod.]

Thanks in advance for your help.

				- David Novak


From: Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...>
Date: Sat, 1 May 93 17:11:14 -0400
Subject: Yeshiva Flaming

> I would like to suggest that the "flaming" of the Yeshiva world for not
> respecting Rav Soloveitchik enough should cease.  If we are to learn
> anything from him, it is that he felt that the Torah that he taught is
> what truly matters, and those that will hear, will hear.  It is not
> going to do anything positive to flame a group that largely does not
> read this forum.

While I agree with what is said here in principle, I believe that there
is also a lesson to be learned in evaluating exactly how certain
segments of the Orthodox community view/viewed the Rav and "modern
Orthodoxy."  When segments of the community are engaging in historical
revisionism (ie, the _My Uncle the Netziv_ fiasco) or flat out
disrespect (the derogatory references to the Rav as "J.B.," etc, etc),
it is our duty to expose and respond to such activities.  By discussing
these actions, _we_ can learn exactly how one _shouldn't_ treat a talmud
chacham, and _we_ can learn a lesson about tolerance.

While it may be true that "flaming" the Yeshiva world is largely
inconsequential in this forum, I ask: have you similarly taken "The
Jewish Observer" to task for its various attacks on Y.U. and "modern
Orthodoxy?"  Or do their "flamings," considerably more vitriolic in
character than anything seen here on m.j., somehow contribute to the
unity of am yisrael?  I think not.

That the hashgafa and approach of Y.U. and the Rav is in conflict with
the appoach of the Yeshiva world is not what is problematic here.  The
problem is one of gaiva, and kavod harav.  None of us has a problem
pointing out that eating a cheeseburger is wrong; well, showing
disrespect to a rav is also wrong.

Eitan Fiorino


End of Volume 7 Issue 16