Volume 9 Number 7
                       Produced: Sun Sep  5 21:38:32 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Agendas and Halachah
         [Warren Burstein]
Chazal & Gezerot
         [Yisrael Medad]
Child-raising as a Mitzva
         [Yisrael Medad]
Giving up on Orthodoxy
         [David Charlap]
         [Danny Skaist]
Sandals in Shul
         [Eric W. Mack]
Tfila KeVatikin
         [Dov Bloom]
Yonah's prayer
         [Ezra Tanenbaum]


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 02:03:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Agendas and Halachah

Anthonyt Fiorino writes:

> all 3 of those concepts (or in David's language, agendas) are *halachic*
> inyanim. 

I would say that the concern which motivates the supporters of
innovative form of women's worship is the quite halachic "tikun olam".



From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 09:15 IST
Subject: Chazal & Gezerot

Refererring to Eitan's posting (Vol 8 # 82) on the interplay between
chazal and the gezerot they make, I recall being told by the Rosh Yeshiva
of Hesder Yeshiva Shiloh, a bit facetiously but reflective of certain
values of certain Jews, the following:
a Chasid appeared unannounced at his Rebbe's house on the eve of Pesach.
The Rebbe, as it happened, had a plumber over who was replacing his
toilet seat.  Not wishing to bother the Rebbe the Chasid left.  But the
lesson he had learned was that in order to be fully stringent regarding
*chametz* (leaven), he should follow his Rebbe's example and replace his
toilet bowl.
The lesson?  Not every gezerah can be understood within its time frame
and not every time-frame begets a gezerah.  But there is nothing wrong
with questioning the reasoning of a Gadol (outstanding scholar) about
his decisions.

Yisrael Medad


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 09:15 IST
Subject: Child-raising as a Mitzva

Regarding the posting of Eitan (Vol. 8 # 81) interconnected with the
question of commandments dependent upon time frames and the issue of
child-raising - all this as it relates to women and prayer, may I
refer to a personal incident?

Some ten years ago, my youngest son was hospitalized for six weeks just
two weeks after birth.  My wife spent most of the time in the hospital
and I valiantly (with the help of my Shiloh neighbors) took care of the
other four.  Finding myself unable to make all the prayers on time, if
at all, our local Rav decided for me that I was in the halachic
category of *anus* (forced by circumstances) and that I was relieved of
the time restrictions if that was the case.

If I could extrapolate, I would think that child-raising is indeed a
mitzva and that some element of halachic leniency could be applied by
a posek (halachic decision-maker).

Yisrael Medad


From: <dic5340@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 13:48:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Giving up on Orthodoxy

Anthony Fiorino <fiorino@...> writes:
>I feel a little bit that this is an attempt at strong-arming.  One
>doesn't determine halachah by threat.  To say "unless things change, x
>number of people are going to leave Orthodoxy" -- this is a threat.

Not to mention the fact that it is useless as far as God is concerned.

HKB"H does not care what movement or group a Jew affiliates
him/herself with, as long as this Jew is doing Mitzvot.  So, if
Orthodoxy should cave in to such threats and make an allowance that
doesn't fit in with Halacha, you may end up with more Orthodox Jews,
but fewer Jews will be doing mitzvot.  It will increase the number of
people calling themselves "orthodox", but it won't do a thing to bring
Jews closer to God.

Once you begin encouraging behavior that is not endorsed by, and might
even be forbidden by, the Torah, you are going against God, and it
really doesn't matter whether you call yourself "orthodox" or anything


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 05:49:33 -0400
Subject: Measurements

>Eli Turkel
>      Let me put out that not everyone agrees to the connection between
>"Yeridas HaDoros" and Sinai. The Nodah Beyehuda (Rav Yechezkel Landau)
>in his famous discussion of the size of measurements (Amot, Ke-zayit
>etc.) assumes that physically we are smaller than previous generations
>and not just spiritually.

I do not know what to make of measurements.  We know, and accept without
question, what the rishonim said, that in their day people were smaller then
in the time of the gemorrah. Later sources assumed that this phenomonen
continued. But we also know, simply by looking at suits of armor, that
people in the middle ages were much smaller than they are today.  Does that
mean that we are back to the size of the time of the gemorrah?  Has all the
breeding effort of eggs and olives for bigger sizes not put us ahead of the
eggs and olives of the middle ages? ? ? (maybe even back to the gemorra's

any opinions or even facts would be welcome.



From: <ce157@...> (Eric W. Mack)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 20:33:21 -0400
Subject: Sandals in Shul

I would like to survey shul policies around the world as to the
permissibility of sandals in shul.  If you would like to assist,
please provide the following info via e-mail direct to me
(Eric Mack)....  <ce157@...>  TIA

Shul Name
Affiliation or orientation (e.g., OU, YI, Aguda, USCJ, UAHC, etc.)
Location (City, State/Province, Country)
Sandal Policy (never allowed, allowed in kahal [congregation],
  allowed by the ba'al t'fila [prayer leader], etc.)

L'shana tova tikatevu!
Go Indians, White Sox, Browns and Bears!
Eric Mack and/or Cheryl Birkner Mack


From: <bloomdov@...> (Dov Bloom)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 93 03:23:17 -0400
Subject: Tfila KeVatikin

Danny Skaist asked about tfila kevatikin in V8 n86.

The earliest time for the morning amida is a daybreak (henetz hachama - the
appearance of the sun). This is then _also_ the _proper_ time, following the
rule "zrizim makdimim" - to perform a mitzva as soon as you can.

Kriat Shema can be said immediately before sunrise, at sunrise one says the
blessing "ga'al yisrael" and begins amida.

Metaphysically it seems to me optimal to begin at the physically beginning
of the day, and it can also be spiritually satisfying to say "ga'al yisrael"
and see the crack of dawn. This is of course if you can get up that early!
( If you can't, try living on a kibbutz where the only minyan is at 5:50!)

[I found the term "vatikin minyan" applied (what a misnomer) in America to
any early minyan on Shabbat - ie a 7:30 minyan when the shuls usually begin
at 8:30 or 8:45. Is this yeridat hadorot (decline of the generations)?]

                                 Dov Bloom


From: <bob@...> (Ezra Tanenbaum)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 93 12:04:04 -0400
Subject: Yonah's prayer

Looking ahead to Yom Kippur, I have always been struck by the brevity
of Yonah's [Jonah's] prayer from inside the fish.
His prayer is very short, only about 5 or 6 lines, but has three main
parts. First is his recognition of his total helplessness in the depths
of the sea. Second is his recognition of the miracle of his survival
and the acknowledgement that only G-d could be the architect of that
survival. Third is Jonah's expression of willingness to do G-d's will
which he had been avoiding.

This formula is a formula of faith in G-d which can be applied to
any situation.
1. Our own resources are limited, and our lives are easily made unmanagable.
2. Recognition that only through G-d's providence do we succeed in anything.
3. Turn our lives over to the care of G-d and accept His will for us.

I recently absorbed a 15% pay cut, and am searching for a better job.
I can apply this formula to my own situation:
1. Dear G-d, my current financial situation is extremely difficult and
   rapidly getting worse.
2. My current financial survival is a miracle not of my own making.
   My basic existence continues as a result of a Grace and Providence from You.
   Any improvement will come with Your Divine assistance of my efforts.
3. I remain Your humble servant, trying to do Your will, while accepting
   that my life is in Your hands, and the outcome is by Your determination
   all to my benefit.

Stay tuned for future developments.

Ezra Bob Tanenbaum	1016 Central Ave	Highland Park, NJ 08904
home: (908)819-7533	work: (908)615-2899
email: att!trumpet!bob or <bob@...>


End of Volume 9 Issue 7