Volume 9 Number 38
                       Produced: Wed Sep 29  6:46:41 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bina Hagiganu
         [David Kessler]
Clarification of Clarification
         [Shmarya Richler]
Levono & Yoreach
         [Percy Mett]
Minhag based on Gematria
         [Chaim Schild]
Moscow Shabbos times
         [David Clinton]
People don't hold by that hechsher
         [Mike Gerver]
         [Zev Farkas]
Round fields
         [Mayer Danziger]
Second Higayon Conference
         [Dr. Moshe Koppel]
Shema Kolanu Verses
         [Am Goldstein]
Whose lives may we/must we save?
         [David/Jayne Guberman]


From: <kessler@...> (David Kessler)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 09:27:09 +0300
Subject: Bina Hagiganu

In MJ, V. 9 #34, Warren Burstein asks about the chazan's omission of
two lines during Sh'ma Kolenu: Y'hiu Leratzon Imre Fi V'hegyon libi
L'fanecha , and Amareinu Ha'azina, Bina Hagegeinu.  I believe this originates
in a conflict between the nusach (order of prayers) and the "mesora"
(oral tradition) of the chazanim. To wit, if one compares the s'lichot
of Nusach Polin (i.e. Poland) and Nusach Lita (i.e. Lithuania) one finds
that the order of verses in Sh'ma Koleinu differs.  The Nusach Lita version
has the two verses in question appearing  a f t e r   the verse  Al Ta
'azveinu Avinu, Al Tirchak Memenu, whereas in the Nusach Polin version the
two verses appear earlier.  The chazanim chant according to the order of
the Nusach Lita, even though the machzor has the Nusach Polin order.  This
may be because it seems like all machzorim follow the Nusach Polin, whereas
for s'lichot, the Nusach Lita seems more popular, at least in the US.  Thus
even on Yom Kippur, the chazanim stick to the more familiar Nusach Lita order,
independent of what is in the machzor.  Now, as to why the chant stops halfway
thru the Sh'ma Koleinu, I eagerly await learning, as I know no explanation.
David Kessler,      Dept. of Physics,  Bar-Ilan Univ.


From: Shmarya Richler <richler@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 11:31:50 -0400
Subject: RE: Clarification of Clarification

Yosef Bechhofer writes:
>They claim that this distinction began with the Ba'al  Shem  Tov, 
>who picked it up from a line that had previously  been  interrupted 
>since the time of the Nesi'im, continued through his student, the
>Mezritcher Maggid,  then  to  the  Ba'al  HaTanya,  and   subsequently
>to   his descendants, the following Rebbes.

David Charlap writes to clarify:

>The Ba'al Shem Tov was _NOT_ the founder of Chabad/Lubavitch
>chassidism. He is the founder of ALL chassidism. The Lubavitch
>founder is Rabbi Shneur Zalman, the "Alter Rebbe", a disciple
>of the Ba'al Shem Tov.        

A clarification of Davids' clarification:

The Alter Rebbe was a disciple of the Magid of Mezeritch not of
the Ba'al Shem Tov. 

Shmarya Richler


From: <P.Mett@...> (Percy Mett)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 15:20:40 +0000
Subject: Levono & Yoreach

I think you will find that the word for moon in Tnach is 'yoreach' whereas
the word used by chazal and in the tefilos is 'levonoh'.

Perets Mett

:Gut Yom Tov:


From: SCHILD%<GAIA@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 12:31:44 -0400
Subject: Minhag based on Gematria

In the Shulchan Aruch, it says that the minhag(custom) is not to eat
nuts during Tishrei since the gematria of nut equals that for the word for
sin...........That started me wondering. Does anybody know of any other
practical everyday halacha/minhag that is based on a gematria.

Please reply to



From: <ai917@...> (David Clinton)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 16:56:56 EDT
Subject: Moscow Shabbos times

The APPROXIMATE time of shkiya (sundown) in Moscow on Friday Oct.
29th is 4:29 (unadjusted to any local times - like our Daylight
Savings etc.).  Depending on your opinion, Shabbos would end 
between around 5:15 and 5:40 the next night.

For Nov 5th, sundown is around 4:10 with Shabbos ending between 
4:55 and 5:20.

All times are approx.!
Source:  Sefer Ohr Meir (Kuntrus Haneshef) by Rabbi Meir Posen - 
tables at the back...

David Clinton


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 3:26:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: People don't hold by that hechsher

Leon Dworsky in v9n11, among others, mentioned the danger of lashon hara
[the evil tongue, i.e. gossip] in repeating rumors about certain
hashgacha [supervision] for kashrut not being up to acceptable
standards, and the possibility that people's business could wrongly be
hurt by such rumors.  This is more than a theoretical possibility. The
following true story was told to me by Ruth Korman a"h, who will be
fondly remembered by anyone on this list who lived in Ithaca in the
1960's, 1970's and 1980's:

There was a small grocery store in the Bronx, I think in the 1950's. The
proprietor was a Holocaust survivor. Every year he used to sell his
chametz through the rabbi in the big neighborhood shul. One year he
decided instead to sell his chametz through another rabbi, a man whom he
thought could use the money, just as Orthodox as the shul rabbi. After
Pesach the shul rabbi made an announcement: the grocery store did not
sell their chametz, so no one should shop there. He never asked the
owner of the grocery store whether he had sold his chametz through
someone else. As a result, the grocery store went out of business.

I suspect that many people who believe and propagate rumors about the
lack of reliability of kashrut supervision figure that, even if they are
not sure the rumors are true, it doesn't do any harm to play it safe and
not use the products in question. Not necessarily true!

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: Zev Farkas <farkas@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 23:41:43 -0400
Subject: Prosthetics

i know this is way off topic, so i'll keep it brief.
anyone out there know of any research being done in the field of
electronic prosthetic devices, especially in Israel or the NY area?  I
hope to get into the field in the next few years, and would like to start

Zev Farkas, PE                                :)
<farkas@...>       718 829 5278


From: diverdan!<mayer@...> (Mayer Danziger)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 11:31:52 -0400
Subject: Round fields

In response to Steve Wildstrom's question: Does a farmer with a round field
have to leave a corner (Peah) uncut for the poor?

I did not find mention of a round field in the Mishna Mesechta Peah or
in Rambam Hilchot Matanot Aniyim. What I did find is that Peah does not
have to be in the corner of a field. One may leave Peah in the center or
side of the field as long as the Peah is the last growth to be cut and
is in one particular area. A round field would then (seemingly) be
liable for Peah. The question then arises: What does the Torah mean by

The Malbim on Vayikra 19.9 gives a lenghty explanation of of all the
many different terms the Torah uses to describe direction. Malbim states
that Peah can only refer to something with four sides - not geometric
sides but directional sides. A field is spread in four directions and
the Torah requires Peah to be to one side and not around the entire
perimeter of the field. The concept of Peah to be placed in one
direction, is to allow for easy retrieval by the poor. See Malbim for
complete explanation. G'mar Tov.

Mayer Danziger

[Kibi Hoffman also sent in a response that Peah need not be a corner.


From: <koppel@...> (Dr. Moshe Koppel)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 15:13:50 +0200
Subject: Second Higayon Conference

well, not actually a full-blown conference , more like a 'yom iyun'

On Thursday, 6 Cheshvan (October 21), we will have a full day of
lectures on 'logic and halacha' in the Beck Auditorium at Bar-Ilan.
Here's the (tentative) schedule:

9:30-12:30 Foundational Issues

Robert Brody (Dept. of Talmud, Hebrew U.)
  "Graphic representation of structure of 'sugyot'"

Shlomo Z. Havlin (Dept. of Talmud/Kollel, Bar-Ilan U.)
  "Principles of halachic generalization"

Moshe Koppel (Dept. of Mathematics, Bar-Ilan U.)
  "Forgotten halachot and the origins of 'makhloket'"

1:45-5:00 Mathematics and Halacha

Shimon Bolag (Jerusalem College of Technology [=Machon Lev])
  "Pi in the Talmud and commentaries"

Ely Merzbach (Dept. of Mathematics, Bar-Ilan U.)
  "A combinatorial problem concerning 'yibum'"

Shabtai Rapaport (Yeshivat Hesder - Efrat)
  "Probabilistic proofs in the Talmud"

Hillel Furstenberg (Dept. of Mathematics, Hebrew U.)
  "Mathematicians in the philosophy of Rav Soloveichek"

All lectures will take place in Hebrew. The public is invited.
If you'll permit me a brief plug, I might add that (present company
excluded) we're talking some some fairly major big shots.

-Moshe Koppel


From: Am Goldstein <MZIESOL@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 10:01:20 IST
Subject: Re: Shema Kolanu Verses

Warren Burstein has obviously not been in my shul or in any shul in
the Neve Shaanan section of Haifa, for (at least in three of them)
"amareinu haazinah..." is chanted out loud by the hazzan.  Of course
in nusach sefard, the order is somewhat different than in nusach


From: David/Jayne Guberman <guberman@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 16:29:38 -0400
Subject: Whose lives may we/must we save?

     In A People Divided:  Judaism In Contemporary America_ (Basic
Books 1993, p. 175), Jack Wertheimer of "leading Orthodox rabbinic
decisors of _both_ the right-wing _Haredi_ sector and the more
moderate faction rul[ing] that 'in principle it is forbidden to
save the life of a Reform or Conservative Jew on Shabbat on the
same basis that one is not allowed to desecrate the Sabbath to save
a gentile's life.'"
     Are these two rulings accurately reported?
     What is their basis?
     If the rulings have been accurately reported, why are they 

        David A. Guberman                  "If I had more time, I 
        <guberman@...>              would have made it briefer."


End of Volume 9 Issue 38