Volume 9 Number 84
                       Produced: Sun Nov  7 22:20:56 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another Rav Soloveitchik Bibliography
         [Jeff Mandin]
Calling all Dutch Speakers!!!
         [Zvi Lando]
Earth at Center of Universe...not
         [Mechy Frankel]
         [Michael Allen]
Meimad and the Peace Agreement:
         [Warren Burstein]
New List in French
         [Nicolas Rebibo]
Peace Accords
         [Frank Silbermann]
Rescuing the Captive
         [Elise Braverman]
Schools In Israel
         [Aharon Fischman]
Tallit Katan
         [Alan Stadtmauer]
The Flood and Trees
         [Eli Turkel]


From: Jeff Mandin <jeff@...>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 12:05:20 -0500
Subject: Another Rav Soloveitchik Bibliography

The Summer(#31) issue of Daat, the Bar-Ilan University philosophy
journal, contains a very extensive bibliography of Rav Soloveitchik.
Among the articles mentioned are some which I don't recall seeing
referenced elsewhere.


From: Zvi Lando <lando@...>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:47:51 -0500
Subject: Calling all Dutch Speakers!!!


Jerusalem One is about to start a new list in the Dutch language. The
moderator, Danny Schilo from Nederlands would like to know who is
interested in such a list and what they would like this list to be
about.  If you are interested, please contact him at:


Thank you -

Zvi Lando                              Email: <lando@...>
Jerusalem One Network Manager          Fax: 9722 964588
Ben-Labrat St. 6                       Phone: 9722 662242
Jerusalem, Israel                      Phone: 9722 662232


From: <frankel@...> (Mechy Frankel)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:47:12 -0500
Subject: Earth at Center of Universe...not

Re: Shaya Karlinsky's inquiry (Vol ( #55) concerning the Earth's place
in the Universe and whether such assertions might be "false, true,
meaningless, or indeterminate"

His formulation (as well as some of the respondents) of the issue of the
earth's physical "centrality" and its dependence on either knowing or
not knowing where the universe boundary "is" is flawed. The current
universe is (according to a consensus scientific view - there are
dissenters) of finite size and hence "bounded".The ususal analogy is to
the two-dimensional geometry of the surface of a ball. It is a finite,
bounded (2-D) space but has no boundary edge. each point on the surface
is equivalent to all others and none is more "central" than any others.
if the ball should be expanding (as our universe is believed to be
expanding) each point on the surface observes all other points receding
symmetrically. (think of equally spaced dots on the surface of a round
expanding balloon all receding from one another as the balloon is blown
up.) If you can twist your mind to analogize in one higher dimension,
our 3-dimensional physical space is actually curved (by the presence of
matter) like that ball's surface (i.e. our space is actually the surface
of some four dimensional hypersphere (sorry about that)) and thus has no
spatial "edge" at all. The real geometry of our universe is such that
were you to travel out on a geodesic (sort of a straight line) you would
eventually return to your starting point, like an ant crawling "in a
straight line" along the surface of a baseball would eventually return
to its starting point. (actually you wouldn't because the universe would
have re-collapsed down to nothing by the time you'd finished your
journey or - in a non-collapse (open universe) solution the geometry
(negative curvature) would never lead you back to your starting point in
the first place). Interestingly enough, the gravitational field equation
solutions do allow an "edge" for the time dimension. i.e. time has a
distinct Bereshit (beginning) and also an "end" - should the universe
mass density be sufficiently great to reverse the current expansionary
phase (one of the great observational unknowns of modern astronomy).
There are also modern theories incorporating quantum concepts which
"shmear out" the "beginning" of time and thus have no time edge either.

Thus depending entirely on personal semantic or philosophical prejudices
you might defend either "false", "indeterminate", or (my choice)
"meaningless". It is certainly not uniquely true in any physical sense.
Any statements by UACs (unassailble authorities to the contrary) should
be taken as metaphorical/allegorical/spiritual assesments.

Mechy Frankel                           H: (301) 593-3949
<frankel@...>                      W: (703) 325-1277


From: Michael Allen <allen@...>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:47:32 -0500
Subject: Evolution

Bob> The crab story, although lovely, is anecdotal, and unproven.  The famous
Bob> experiment of cutting off the mouse tails for twenty generations showed
Bob> the opposite side of that coin.  Don't take it too seriously.
Bob> __Bob Werman     <rwerman@...>      Jerusalem

Actually, it has always been a wonder to me that anyone did this
experiment and that the result was considered interesting.  Haven't
Jews been practicing Mila (circumcision) for 100 generations or more?

// Michael Allen	<allen@...> (for a while :-)


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 06:52:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Meimad and the Peace Agreement:

Arnie Lustiger writes:

>In the middle of reading the discussions of the peace agreement in
>mail.jewish, I wondered if anyone knew what Meimad's position was.
>(Meimad is the political movement headed by Rav Amital Shlita of Har
>Etzion Yeshiva, with a liberal view towards land for peace). BTW, does
>Meimad still exist, and what influence does it have on the religious

To answer the less inflammable question first, Meimad still exists, but
not as a political party.  Rav Amital still heads it.  I attended a
lecture given by them at Yakar (a shul in Jerusalem that has shiurim and
lectures on a variety off subjects), I got the impression that they want
to find ways that religious viewpoints, presented in language that will
not sound alien to modern ears, can have an influence on society as a
whole, are going to be setting up committees on various subjects to
write position papers.  I think that they said that Meimad would not be
taking a position on territorial issues (this was long before recent
developements) other than that the halacha in this matter is that the
government ought to decide, not the rabbis.

As to Rav Amital, he appeared at a gathering of Oz V'Shalom/Netivot
Shalom on Monday of this week.  He spoke in favor of the agreement.

I am afraid that I do not recall much of the details of what he said, as
I was a bit shaken up after a member of the audience sitting behind me
had the chutzpah to start shouting during the Rosh Yeshiva's talk and I,
having been asked to help with crowd control, tried to get him to sit
down or leave.  Afterwards I had an excess of adrenaline which detracted
from my attention.


From: nre%atlas%<cesar@...> (Nicolas Rebibo)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:47:22 -0500
Subject: New List in French

A new list is born: judaisme-l

Cette liste se veut un lieu de discussion et de reflexion sur tous les
aspects du judaisme. Ces objectifs pourront etre affines au fur et a
mesure de son existence. Cette liste est, a ma connaissance, la premiere
experience de ce type en Francais. Son succes depend de chacun d'entre
nous, faites la connaitre autour de vous.

Pour s'inscrire: 

Mail to: <listserv@...>
Subject: None
Text: sub judaisme-l <prenom> <nom>

A bientot,
Nicolas Rebibo


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:46:26 -0500
Subject: Peace Accords

In Volume 9 Number 78 Allen Elias quotes Rabbi Menachem Zemba hy"d
speaking at a meeting of Agudat Israel before WWII in response
to the Partition resolution by the Peel commission (1937):

	Only those who are willing to cut out parts of the Torah
	are willing to agree to cutting out parts of Eretz Israel.

Nu, so if we apply this reasoning to the parts of Eretz Israel that we
take back each day from the stone and fire-bomb throwers, then what are
we to do about the parts of Eretz Israel which at this time are still in
the hands of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq?

Frank Silbermann	<fs@...>
Tulane University	New Orleans, Louisiana  USA


From: <elbraverman@...> (Elise Braverman)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 19:47:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Rescuing the Captive

There is a Mishna in Horriot (sp?) to check out on idea of rescuing
capitives. I think it is at the end of perek 7 of so. It gives a listing
of who to save first, man or woman in different situations including
when taken in captivity (a woman first in that case).

Elise Braverman


From: <afischma@...> (Aharon Fischman)
Date: 4 Nov 93 14:24:19 GMT
Subject: Schools In Israel

	This is a response to the question that Mr & Mrs Goldfinger
asked about schools in Israel. I recently graduated from YU, and my
first year was spent in Israel in Yeshivat Sha'alvim, a hesder (part
army/part learning) yeshiva, so my experience in these matters is my
	There are a couple of choices for your son (whom to me seems B"H
normal) The first is an American yeshiva in Israel, where he can learn
full time in Israel, without the langauge being a full time problem.
Exapmles are Ohr Yerushalayim on Moshav Beit Meir, and Yeshiva Sha'arai
(Mevetzret) Yerushalayim in Mevatzret Tzion. The second option is a
University/Learning program such as Bar-Ilan, where there are shiurim
and classes in the same schedule.
	In all cases college credit might be arrangeable through YU or
Touro or Rockland Community College in New York. If you have any other
questions feel free to contact me directly.

Aharon Fischman			Aylecha Hashem Ekra, V'ell Hashem Et'chanan
<afischman@...> -or- fischman@yu1.yu.edu


From: Alan Stadtmauer <stadt@...>
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 15:08:07 -0500
Subject: Tallit Katan

Does anyone know when the tallit katan was first used as a method of 
fulfilling the commandment of tsitsit? (That is, as opposed to only 
putting tsitsit on four cornered garments or wearing a tallit gadol.)


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 22:16:02 +0200
Subject: The Flood and Trees

     I was asked by someone on the network about trees (and the olive
branch in particular) surviving the flood. This is discussed by the
Ramban (Berseshit 8:11). He says that since there was no flooding waters
the trees were not uprooted (I don't understand his point since if a
tree is under water for several hundred days it seems to me that all
leaves would die and there would be no olive leaves even if the tree is
left standing). The Ramban then brings two opinions from Bereshit
Rabbah.  One says that the olive leaf came from the Mount of Olives (is
that the origin of the name?) and it did not rain in israel. The other
answer is that the leaf came from the Garden of Eden. Ramban concludes
that according to these opinions all trees were uprooted outside of
Israel. In particular the medrash continues that Noah planted his
vineyard, after the flood, with branches of the vine, shoots of fig
trees and stumps of olive trees implying that all these were thouroughly
destroyed in the flood (where did other species of trees and vegetables
come from?).

Eli Turkel


End of Volume 9 Issue 84