Volume 10 Number 31
                       Produced: Mon Nov 29 12:43:54 1993

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Hyman]
Archiving & Review
         [Robert P Klein]
Archiving Jewish-mail
         [Mark Katz]
Email address request
         [David Green]
Kashrus in Pachog(sp)
         [Heather Luntz]
Kosher in DC
         [Rivkah Isseroff]
Minyan in Orlando
         [Dov Ettner]
Recent Submissions
         [Alan Zaitchik]
Tanach Directory on israel.nysernet.org
         [Seth Ness]


From: <Avi_J._Hyman@...> (Avi Hyman)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 21:18:02 -0500
Subject: Abeles/archives/Hillel/Hevrusah

These comments stem from Abeles's item on archiving mail-jewish:

First, as a moderator of a Jewish List and a person employed in computer
communications (especially GOPHER-based archives) I can say that there
is very little evidence that people use listserv-based archives for
anything other than catching up on discussions. If you have evidence
otherwise I would like to know.

There are two Jewish issues here: If you think about it - the evolution
of the Talmud is nothing more than the types of discussions that occur
here. I would suggest that if Beit Hillel and Beit Shamai were around
today, they would use mail-jewish as their medium of discussion. Second,
Reb Feldblum has never implied that mail-jewish is a Halachik source,
but his archiving efforts serve as a means of putting people in touch
for learning. The entire _Hevrusah_ system of learning is based on
similar principles.  Following Abeles's philosophy, Jewish tradition
should discourage the _hevrusah_ too, since authority is in question.

Finally, as for the moderator's right to _edit_. This is Reb Feldblum's
list. He puts in the effort to provide us with one of the best lists
(Jewish or not) in the world. He who does the work has the right to


From: Robert P Klein <kl2@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 08:15:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Archiving & Review

I have to take issue with the suggestion of Joe Abeles (mj 10-10) to
abolish the mj archives.  Only recently the archives came in very handy
when the hardcopy I tried to produce of several issues came out very
poorly.  I needed to fetch another copy of the issues.  No doubt there
are disadvantages to archiving, but most of the "disadvantages" that Mr.
Abeles mentions don't seem to be much of a problem to me.  In fact one
of the disadvantages he mentions, that individuals might surpress their
thoughts, might even have a positive side, in that contributors just
might be more careful with the way they state their positions. In any
case, here's one strong vote for keeping the archives.

Regarding the moderator's "peer" review role, I have always assumed that
this is the personal project of the moderator from which I have
benefited immensley.  The welcome message makes very clear what the
ground rules are.  From what I can tell the moderator has been quite
even handed (as witnessed by the posting of the submission by Mr.
Abeles) for submissions which follow the guidelines that he has


From: Mark Katz <mark@...>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 05:33:23 -0500
Subject: Archiving Jewish-mail

I am 100% behind Avi's point of view and his continuing efforts on
J-Mail.  It should be archived....

My request is for a key-word search facility to be able to locate
individual newsletters or even articles. This needs to be properly
thought out, specified and developed - it may come with future releases
of the GOPHER/WWW concepts



From: David Green <dagreen@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 93 22:12:31 -0500
Subject: Email address request

Hello Jewish mail types,
	I am looking for the Email adress of a friend of mine who is  
currently serving in Spokesman's unit of the Isreali Army.  Her name  
is Yael Cohen and she works at the Jersulaem offices.  if any can  
help me find it it would be most apricated. My adress is 


		Thank You
			David Green


From: Heather Luntz <luntz@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 10:51:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Kashrus in Pachog(sp)


I am going out to see some distant relatives in Pachog (I presume that
is not how one spells it but that seems to be the phonetic pronuciation)
Long Island next Sunday.

These relatives are not frum, but I heard from another (non frum)
relative who is going that they have booked in a place called "Bens"
which is"under rabinical supervision but open on shabbat", to try and
cater to my needs.

Now this place does not sound like the kind of place whose kashrus I
would trust, so I would prefer to be able to phone back and say can we
change it to place "x".

Can anybody tell me what is available as a place to have a Sunday lunch
in that part of Long Island (preferably not too expensive as I presume I
won't be paying, and not too far from wherever Ben's is, they are going
to enough trouble for me already), and failing that to give me any
information on who supervises this Bens and what it status is.

Sorry i can't be more geographically specific, as an Australian, I don't
know New York very well, and have only once ever been to long Island and
certainly not to Pachog (or whatever).



From: Rivkah Isseroff <rrisseroff@...>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 93 22:32:30 -0500
Subject: Kosher in DC

I know this must have been addressed in the past, but I haven't kept
track. I will be in Washigton, D.C. this Shabbat, Dec 3-4, for a meeting
that ends late on Fri afternoon.  Although I will be staying at a
friend's house, within walking distance of the Georgetown shul, I do not
know of any place to order ready made kosher food for Shabbat (in the DC
or Georgetown area). Any sugestions would be welcome.

Rivkah Isseroff 


From: <dovle@...> (Dov Ettner)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 10:21:22 +0200
Subject: Minyan in Orlando

Does anyone know of a daily  Orthodox minyan  in the area ?



From: Alan Zaitchik <ZAITCHIK@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 11:00:22 -0500
Subject: Recent Submissions

I am troubled by a number of postings that have come up over
the last few weeks.

1. Healing non-Jews on Shabbat "mishum eivah". Am I the only reader of
the list who is bothered by the implication that a non-Jewish life is
less important than violating a shvut d'rabanan? Lest I be accused of
questioning the correctness of halacha let me rephrase this: what can
one make of this halacha in terms of a fundamental commitment to the
value of ALL human life? I have to confess that the only position I can
make sense of here is that the poskim went looking for some heter that
would allow them to give the ethically right practical psak (go ahead
and heal the person), and just ducked the philosophical question
altogether. I would have felt better had we ended up talking about
"darchei shalom" rather than "mishum eivah", as in other cases, but
there it is!

2. How can M and M's without any special OU be kosher, given that they
may have been sitting on the grocer's shelf for who knows how long, and
so most certainly may date from long before any sort of OU supervision?

3. What's this Rosh Yeshiva worship that confuses a Rosh Yeshiva with a
Chassidic Rebbe? The idea of the "infallibility" of g'dolim is
shockingly anti-Litvish. But there has been such a Chassidization of the
Yeshiva world that I suppose I shouldn't be shocked. In evidence I offer
all those "Art Scroll"-like books on various Gdolim which consitute a
new pseudo-history of the Yeshiva "greats".

4. Agudah and Mizrachi: their fundamental difference with respect to
Zionism, I believe, is that the former has always rejected the idea that
POLITICAL Zionism in the "statist" sense of Herzl, Jabotinsky, and (once
he was PM) Ben-Gurion, has anything intrinsically valuable to it from a
Jewish point of view. Mizrachi has, at least recently, cast shivat Zion
(the return to Zion) as part of a POLITICAL drama of inherent religious
meaning. Thus Mizrachi, unlike Agudah, shares secular Zionist commitment
to a nationalist political idea. For Agudah the State is problematic and
at best instrumentally valuable (it can save Jewish lives, it can fund
Torah studies, and so on). This is not surprising since the modern idea
of the State is not one which you find in traditional sources, and thus
you have to be educated in modern European thinking to have such an
ideology, whereas Agudah can participate pragmatically in the Knesset
just as it did in the Polish Diet, as an ideological outsider.  I am not
endorsing either view here, just noting that they are quite distinct, in
fact opposed to one another. It is very disturbing to think that this
basic difference is not appreciated. Anyone who remembers Rav Shach's
blistering sarcasm about those who are concerned only about the
"shtoochim" (territories, as in "occupied territories") would not be



From: Seth Ness <ness@...>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 10:38:48 -0500
Subject: Tanach Directory on israel.nysernet.org


hello all,
This is the periodical plug for the nysernet tanach directory. Now
accessible to the world via anonymous FTP to israel.nysernet.org in the
/israel/tanach directory. Or by Gopher to the new york-israel project of
nysernet under 'other gophers/north american gophers/USA/new york/new
york-israel project of nysernet/jews and judaism/devrei torah'. Or you can
gopher directly to israel.nysernet.org port 71. All files are also
available via email, through the Nysernet listserver.

Now featuring the tanach in hebrew(minus some neviim)-please note that
some versions are not the masoretic text so read the README files. Also
available by special arrangement.. the biblia hebraica stuttgartensia.
again read the README files.

Also featuring myriad divrei torah by the likes of Rav Riskin, Rav Haber,
Rav Alter, Rav Levitansky,the students of Albert Einstein Med School, and
also A Byte of Torah, L'Chaim, beis chabad, the week ahead and the week in
review and the Oxford University L'Chaim Society Judaism essays. With a
dash of miscellaneous divrei torah and shiurim.

If anyone out there is aware of more sources for these or any other divrei
torah please let me know so they can be added to the archives.

Seth L. Ness                         Ness Gadol Hayah Sham


End of Volume 10 Issue 31