Volume 11 Number 26
                       Produced: Sat Jan 15 22:17:07 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

10 sons of Rav Papa
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
10th of Teves
         [Aryeh Blaut]
A Few Things
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Elisha ben Avuya
         [Joseph Greenberg]
         [Yacov Barber]
Making kosher wine
         [Art Werschulz]
Prayer for rain
         [Josh Klein]
Shmitta and Leap Years
         [David Sherman]


From: <er@...> (Elie Rosenfeld)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 11:29:01 -0500
Subject: 10 sons of Rav Papa

>In a siyyum of a traactate there is a list of 10 sons of Rav Papa.
>Does anyone know if Rav Papa really had 10 sons--is there any of source
>for that or for these names?  If anyone can fill me in on how the names

My father often remarked (he has mentioned this at several siyumim) that
there is no reason to think that all (or even any) of these ten "bar Papas"
are the sons of _Rav_ Papa.  Papa (Pappus) was a rather common name in those
days.  In addition, Amoraim who were sons of Amoraim were more likely known
as Ploni bar _Rav_ Ploni, not just Ploni bar Ploni.



From: Aryeh Blaut <ny000592@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 05:14:50 -0500
Subject: Re: 10th of Teves

>From: <RUEDNBRG@...> (Lucia Ruedenberg)

>with regard to the 10th of Teves - I am interested in hearing from
>people who commemorate the Holocaust on this day. If not, is there
>another day, or another way for ritual commemoration of that disaster
>that you observe?

I have never heard of the practice of commemorating the Holocaust on the 
10 of Teves.  I know of people commemorating it on Tisha B'av and/or Yom 

R' Aryeh Blaut
Seattle, WA

>- The first day of Pesach is Sunday, March 27.  Thus, the first seder
>will be on Motaei Shabbat, March 26.  In order to have Lechem Mishna for
>the Shabbat meals that day, Erev Pesach, one must eat very early,
>because one cannot eat any matzoh on erev pesach, and one cannot eat
>chametz after a certain time (usually around 9:30-10:00 AM here in NY).
>Also, one cannot make any seder/yom tov preperations until after Shabbat
>is over; meaning the seder wont start until pretty late!

In the Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society Succoth 5754 - number 26, 
there is an article by Rabi Alfred Cohen (Rabbi of Cong. Ohaiv Yisroel 
of Blueberry Hill, Monsey & a Rebbe at YU High School) which discusses 
all of the questions which arise from this situation: eating chametz, 
using chametz, using matza, which matza is allowed, Seudah Shelishis 
(3rd meal on Shabbas, handling the matza, setting the table for the 
seder, the seder plate, bedikas chametz, fast of the first born, and 
working on Friday.

R' Aryeh Blaut


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 12:27:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: A Few Things

1) The story about the Rav Zt"l stating that some Amora came just for the 
siyum (in jesting?) -- at least as the story was related to me --
was said about some Amora who is mentioned in the TALMUD near the end of 
a mesechet -- and nowhere else -- and not about one of the sons of Rav 

2) I have heard that Robitussin is 'not Kosher' from various people -- 
yet, it appears on the KAJ (Breuer's) Kosher-for-Passover list every 
year...So, I assume that there is no problem using it...

                             Joseph Steinberg                    
                             (201) 833 - 9674          


From: Joseph Greenberg <72600.225@...>
Date: 07 Jan 94 11:40:22 EST
Subject: Elisha ben Avuya

Interesting "common thread" in Volume 11 Number 14 of MJ... Elisha
ben Avuya.

Jonathan Goldstein brings up the issue that it is always required to
thoroughly check sources before using "such a responsa". I must
agree, although it pains me to. I realize that a reform responsa is
viewed as less than perfect by the vast majority of Orthodoxy, but I
must admit that I feel an emotional contradiction with my own
personal schema of the "equality", or better, worthiness of all Jews.
I recognize that we, as Orthodox Jews, do not accept reform "psakin"
as valid, binding, or otherwise relevant, but I am still willing to
"keep" a mitzva or chiuv even if it's mentioned in a reform "psak". I
personally (and I don't expect anyone else on the list to agree with
me, but they could if they want) regret that we are unable to sit
down and learn together.

Najman Kahana mentioned the case of Rav Meir, who was an expert on
_borer_ apparently (sorry). I guess that I sort of assumed that when
dealing with a reform responsa, most Orthodox Jews would be dubious
or critical enough to know when the author has gone too far. I agree
in principle with the notion that one must critically evaluate a
source before determining the validity of the construct, but I don't
believe that we should automatically eliminate a source that quotes
what we accept in the context of what we don't. That which we accept
is still valid, in my opinion.

Relating to what Robert Book mentioned, I am motivated by both a
desire to encourage non-believers to deal with Halacha, as well as by
a strictly intellectually honest approach to scholarship... though I
can't really separate the two very well for this issue. And by the
way, it's not any surprise if anyone on this list disagrees with that
reform responum, or any other. At least just consider it.....



From: <barbery@...> (Yacov Barber)
Date: Sun, Jan 09 00:39:46 1994
Subject: Havdoloh

>4.  And here's one I have NO answers to, but REALLY want some...  What if
>you end Shabbat by saying the phrase "Baruch Hamavdil bein kodesh l'chol,"
>(as I frequently do, having care of a toddler) and wish to daven Ma'ariv
>later in the evening (like after she's in bed).  Do you say "Ata
>Chonantanu" or has it lost its significance since you've already ended
>Shabbat?  What if you say "Baruch Hamavdil" and daven Ma'ariv only a
>little later, but before Havdalah (like after your husband has davened
>and can take care of the selfsame toddler).  Then it's still the generally
>right time period, but you've still ended Shabbat another way.  Do you say
>Ata Chonantanu?

The Gemoroh in Mas. Brochos daf lamed gimmel(33.)states: That the Anshei
Knesset Hagdoloh instituted that Havdalah should be recited in Tefillah.
When the Yidden became wealthy and could afford wine they established that
it should be recited  over wine. When the Yidden became poor again they
reestablished it as part of Shemonei Esrei. The Gemorah then asks what if
one has allready said Havdoloh with wine does one still say Havdoloh (i.e.
Ato Chonantonu) in Shemonei Esrei? Rav Nachman bar Yitzchok answered
definitly since Havdoloh was primarily established to be resited in the
Shemonei Esrei. This is the Halocho as paskened in Shulchan Aruch Admur
Hazoken Hil. Shabbos siman. 294 hal.2 & in the M.Brurah siman 294 seif
koton aleph. 
                            Yacov Barber <barbery@...> 
Rabbi Yacov Barber
South Caulfield Hebrew Congregation
Phone: +613 576 9225 Fax: +613 528 5980


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 11:09:01 -0500
Subject: Making kosher wine

Hi out there.

Does anybody have any experience making their own kosher wine?  The
most obvious questions that occur to me are the following:

(1) Where can one obtain kosher grape extract?  (This is probably the
    biggest impediment, but I guess one could personally stomp the
    grapes.)  If such extracts exist, are they kosher l'pesach?

(2) What additional ingredients (e.g., yeasts) are needed for
    winemaking, and what kashrut issues are involved?  Again, pesach
    kashrut issues should be addressed.

(3) How does one go about making yayin mevushal?  

(4) Other than making sure that the apparatus is kosher l'pesach, are
    there any additional considerations re the Pesach kashrut of wine?

(5) Recipes?  How long to ferment (either in the vat or the bottle)?
    Good books?


   Art Werschulz (8-{)}  "You can't make an ondelette without breaking waves."
   InterNet:  <agw@...>
   ATTnet:    Columbia University (212) 939-7061
              Fordham University  (212) 636-6325


From: Josh Klein <VTFRST@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 16:25 N
Subject: Prayer for rain

It's well-known that the prayers we say for rain or dew (in season) are
tied to the seasons in Israel, and not to local weather. Thus, in the
extreme case, someone in Auckland, New Zealand says both "Mashiv
haruach" and "v'ten tal u'matar" at the height of summer (locally),
since s/he is asking for adequate precipitation to fall in Eretz
Yisrael, where it's the rainy season (we hope).  For the past two
months, many shuls in Israel have been adding an extra prayer for rain
in "Sh'ma koleinu", during the repetition of the amida. So far, we've
had only about 20% of the usual amount of rain, and the agricultural
situation is looking bleak, since the weather has been warm and dry.
Farmers have had to irrigate, and crops are ripening so quickly that
there's a surplus on the market, so prices fall. While this is good for
consumers now, it'll hit hard in the summer when there'll be less
irrigation water available and prices will go up. A lot of grain and
corn fields sprouted with the first rain, but there's been no follow-up,
and mostof these fields can't be irrigated. This means that fields have
to be resown when the first crop fails (in the hope of rain later on).
Of course, those who don't sow during shmita are watching the fields
they sowed before Rosh Hashana turn brown, with little hope of saving
 To cut to the chase: find an Israeli siddur with the nusach for the
added prayer in sh'ma koleinu (it's more likely to be found in sefardi
siddurim), and encourage your LOR/gabbai/sheliach tzibbur to add
*another* prayer for rain in Israel.

Josh Klein VTFRST@Volcani


From: <dave@...> (David Sherman)
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 08:39:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Shmitta and Leap Years

> From: Shlomo H. Pick <F12013@...>
> MR. Rayman's comments are only correct in a year which is NOT a leap
> year - such as this year (for a shmitta year cannot be a leap year).

I'm confused.  Shmitta comes once every 7 years.  Leap years are a
fixed set of years (I forget which ones) out of every 19, are they
not?  Since 7 doesn't factor evenly into 19, doesn't this mean
that shmitta years should cycle in and out of being leap years
on a 133-year cycle?

David Sherman


End of Volume 11 Issue 26