Volume 11 Number 27
                       Produced: Sat Jan 15 22:36:36 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

10th of Teveth
         [Ed Cohen]
Kiddush Clubs (4)
         [Barry Siegel, Joshua Wise, Irving Katz, Rivkah Isseroff]
Parshas Zachor and 3-Day Purim
         [Marc Meisler]
Three Day Purim (2)
         [Dany Skaist, Stephen Phillips]


From: Ed Cohen <ELCSG@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 11:17:52 EST
Subject: 10th of Teveth

In replies to Lasson(v10,#88) and Skaist(v10,#92), the following is the
situation. I take this from the book by Arthur Spier, "The Comprehensive
Hebrew Calendar," 3rd revised ed. (1986), Feldheim Publishers,
Jerusalem/New york. There are esentially 14 types of Hebrew calendar
years, called the Kebioth, repeating over and over again.  However, a
perfect periodicity of the Kebioth takes place in 689,472 years. So it
would be possible, but impractical, to obtain the years in which the
10th of Teveth falls on a Friday (or any other matter to do with the
Hebrew calendar). Of these 14 years (called A through N by Spier), the
10th of Teveth falls on a Friday in the years B,F,J,M.  So this
occurrence is rather common.

Now let R = Thursday, U = Sunday; and the other days are denoted by the
first letter.  (By the way it cannot occur on M or S.)  The following
are the days on which the 10th of Teveth will occur beginning 1994/5
(Hebrew year: 5755) through the year 2050/1 (Hebrew year: 5811):

1994/5 (5755)              T  T  F  R  T  U  F
2001/2 (5762)     T  U  U  W  T  U  W  T  U  F
2011/2 (5772)     R  U  F  R  T  U  R  T  T  F
2021/2 (5782)     T  T  F  F  T  U  U  R  U  U
2031/2 (5792)     R  U  U  F  R  U  F  R  T  F
2041/2 (5802)     R  T  U  F  T  T  F  T  T  U

Prof. Edward L. Cohen     Dept. of Mathematics
University of Ottawa      Ottawa, ON, Canada,
                          K1N 6N5


From: <sieg@...> (Barry Siegel)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 11:46 EST
Subject: Kiddush Clubs

In M.J. v11n19 Freida Birnbaum responds to my Kiddush Club posting as:

> My hunch is that these clubs appear in Orthodox and not Reform or
> Conservative settings because the Orthodox services are so
> loooooooong... C and R services are much shorter AND the folks are more
> in awe of Western "manners" which think it rude to leave before the end
> except for an emergency.

> Seems to me a more authentic or legitimate response to the impatience
> with the long service would be to go to a hashkoma minyan which is
> usually much shorter, no sermon, etc.  (Of course that's another issue
> because many shuls resent hashkoma minyans as taking away from the main
> one.)  (I meant shorter because they move faster, not because they omit
> stuff!  I mean the shatz just davens, he doesn't warble, etc.)

I agree with the too long Orthodox services.  I believe that most
Shabbat morning "main minyun" are too long, largely because of the 
excessive singing and repeat-singing.  I have Davened at Haskomo minyun 
for the last 5 years and appreciate it very much.  We sing very little.
Our Davening takes 90-100 minutes, not including the Rav's drasha.
For comparison the main minyun takes 160 - 190 minutes. The only complaint
I hear about Hashkomo minyun's are that they are too "early".

In addition, it appears to me that the majority of Haskomo minyunaires 
are the "serious" daveners.  At our Haskomo minyun of approx 60 men folks,
I estimate that 90% of the same also come to daily (morning or evening) 
services. Is this your perception also?

However not to deviate from my original Kiddush Clubs posting, I fail 
to see why this gives the Kiddush Club goers the right to show such 
appalling disrespect to the Davening, Rav, Congregation, Shul etc. 
If davening length is a problem, pick up a sefer and learn/read.
I can even accept going out of the shul and talking once in a while.
What I can't fathom is these Kiddush Club folks leaving EVERY week 
and displaying such revolting, jewish practices and non-consideration.

Barry Siegel   HR 1K-120   (908)615-2928   hrmsf!sieg  OR  <sieg@...>

From: <jdwise@...> (Joshua Wise)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 15:17:06 EST
Subject: Kiddush Clubs

	Regarding Kiddush Clubs, Freda Birnbaum says:

>My hunch is that these clubs appear in Orthodox and not Reform or
>Conservative settings because the Orthodox services are so
>loooooooong... C and R services are much shorter AND the folks are more
>in awe of Western "manners" which think it rude to leave before the end
>except for an emergency.

	First of all, in my experiences Conservative services are
considerably longer than Orthodox minyans. Second, there is no rational
reason to assume that Reform and Conservative individuals have better
manners than Orthodox, and frankly I am insulted at the insinuation.
Third, if a service is that long, people will get impatient and want to
	I had never heard of a "Kiddush Club" until yesterday, and I
agree that is a sign of incredible chutzpah. If these people find the
Rabbi that boring, they should start their own minyan in another place.
	My only objections to the discussions are the consistent
implications that only American Orthodox Jews are capable of such

Joshua Wise

From: Irving Katz <YEHUDA@...>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 20:35:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddush Clubs

Regarding "Kiddush Clubs," one of the (at least) ten explanations given
for the name "Haftarah" is that it comes from "L'hipater"-"to take
leave" of the morning service. Although we still have Musaf left, the
morning service is in a sense over because whereas one cannot recite
"Kiddush" before the Torah reading, one can do so after the Torah
reading.  As for whether any Halachah is being violated, these people
are at the very least missing the Haftarah reading. Most authorities
agree that every person is obligated to hear, or even read, the
Haftarah.  All of this will be discussed iy"h in a work I am writing
(tentatively titled: "The Haftarah: Laws, Customs, and History").

Shlomo Katz

From: Rivkah Isseroff <rrisseroff@...>
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 22:18:46 -0500
Subject: Kiddush Clubs

In a recent volume of MJ: 

>From: <sieg@...> (Barry Siegel)
>Please do not confuse this with the practice of Bal-abatim [members]
>leaving during Musaf repetition for the specific purpose of setting up
>the congregation Kiddush following services.

I ask whether this custom of the (presumably male) Bal-abatim setting up
the kiddush during the Mussaf repetition is Halachically correct, or
would this activity be better relegated to the women congregants who are
not obligated in Tefillah at this specific time. Just asking :-)

Rivkah Isseroff


From: Marc Meisler <mmeisler@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:17:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Parshas Zachor and 3-Day Purim

Even though theses are different topics, they both deal with Purim so I
thought I coudl justify combining them into one message.
First, Alan Mizrachi asks about whether Sephardim have to hear Parshas
Zachor and Parah read in havarah Sephardit (Sephardic pronounciation). 
What I know is that when I was in Israel at Hebrew University, we had a
Shabbos minyan on campus and on Shabbos Zachor one of the Rabbis present
insisted that the kriyah (reading) be done twice with the last Pasuk
(sentence) read twice each time.  The whole thing had to be done in
Ashkenaz and Sephardic and the last pasuk had to be read while pronouncing
the word zecher once as zecher and once as zeycher.  This is based on the
dispute over whether it means that the memory of Amalek has to be blotted
out entirely (zeycher) or all of the males of Amalek (zecher).  Perhaps
somebody else can elaborate on that with some source for it.  There were
not two readings of Parshas Parah.  
Alan said that he thought those were the only cases where this is an issue
because those readings are d'orysa (required according to the Torah).  I
rememember a few years ago where the shul I was in, which is Ashkenazic,
had a bar mitzvah coming up where the boy was going to leyhn with havarah
Sephardic.  Some people were concerned that they would not be yotzeh
(fulfill the mitzvah of hearing the Torah reading), so they decided to
have a hashkomah minyan for that week only where the leyhning was done in
havarah Ashkenaz.  This was done very quietly so most people did not know
and so no one was offended, but it was still done and the Rabbi was one of
those present, although most people went back for the second minyan anyway
to hear the bar mitzvah.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I was a
little puzzled by it.
After that discussion, I will briefly tackle my brother Yochanan Meisler's
question about a three day Purim.  This occurs in a walled city when Purim
comes out on Friday in the rest of the world and Shabbos there.  In those
cities the Megillah is read on Thursday night and Friday morning.  This is
because in the Megillah when talking about Purim it says "v'lo ya'avor"
(and its shall not pass) (I'm at work so I don't have the exact pasuk with
me).  This means that the last day on which the Megillah can be read is
the 15th of Adar, the normal Shushan Purim.  Since that comes on Shabbos,
it must be read earlier and the Gemarah at the beginning of Megillah (The
first Mishnah) says that in this case it is read on Friday.  The maftir
read is Vayavo Amalek, the same thing we read on Purim ( I think.  It
might be the same maftir as read for Parshas Zachor.  I'm not 100% sure
which).  The seuda is done on Sunday.  Al Hanisim is said on Shabbos.  I
can't remember whether matanos la'evyonim (gifts to the poor) and Shalach
manos are done on Friday or Sunday, but I know that the Gemarah in
Megillah, around 5b or 6a, says that matanos la'evyonim are supposed to be
done in conjunction with the megillah reading because the poor people
don't look at the calendar but rather they know that they get gifts with
the megillah reading.  This is actually written about the situation where
we read the megillah in the 1st Adar and then a leap year is declared
which creates a second Adar.  The issue is what has do be done again in
the 2nd Adar.  I am just following the same train of thought to think that
the matanos la'evyonim would be done on Friday.  On the other hand, now
that I am thinking, I think it is done on Sunday along with the seuda and
so are shalach manos.  The question I have is do those of us not in walled
cities say Tachanun on Sunday after Purim when it is still Purim in the
walled cities?

Marc Meisler                   1001 Spring St., Apt. 423    
<mmeisler@...>           Silver Spring, MD  20910


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Dany Skaist)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 05:08:19 -0500
Subject: Three Day Purim

>Yochanan Meisler
>Lou Rayman recently mentioned in a post about the "three day Purim" that
>falls for people in Jerusalem and other walled cities when Shushan Purim
>falls on Shabbos.  I was wondering what is actually done on each of the
>the three days in those locations that makes it a "3 day Purim".

Megilla is not read on shabat for the same reasons that shofar is not blown
on Shabat Rosh Hashana.  Since Sun the 16th of Adar is not one the days
listed when the megilla may be read,  (v'lo ya'avor [it should not pass])
megilla is advanced to the latest acceptable day and read on Friday (14th

Matanot l'evyonim is also given on Fri. since A) it is not the kind of
mitzva we want to put off. B) More people come to shul when they read the
megilla, so the poor will get more money. C) the poor could use the money for
Shabbat as well.

Shabbat the 15th we say "Al hanisim", since it is purim.

Sunday we have the Seudah [festive meal] and send Shalach manot, as if Purim
were put off one day.

My biggest culture shock after aliya was 3 days Purim and 1 day Pessach. :-)


From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 08:21:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Three Day Purim

1. 13th Adar (Thursday) - Ta'anis Ester

2. 14th Adar - Reading of the Megillah and Matonos Lo'Evyonim (gifts
to the poor). This is the 1st of the 3 days.

3. 15th Adar (Shabbos) - Special Torah reading for Purim and Al
Hanisim in the Amidah and Benching. This is the 2nd day.

4. 16th Adar - Mishlo'ach Monos and Se'udas Purim. The 3rd day.

I was in Yerushalyim in 1977 when it was a 3 day Purim; it was a
wonderful Purim that year. Everywhere else has to squeeze everything
into Friday morning, as with this year.

When I was in Yerushalyin that year I purchased a Sefer called "Erev
Pesach Shechol Be'Shabbos UPurim Meshulosh" by a Rav Cohen. It's very
useful for this year, but I don't know if it's still available.

Stephen Phillips


End of Volume 11 Issue 27