Volume 11 Number 86
                       Produced: Sun Feb 20 10:56:44 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

3rd Temple
         [Eli Turkel]
Answer to Practical Question Regarding 3-day Purim
         [Leora Morgenstern]
Date and Composition of Zohar
         [Marc Shapiro]
Geneology software and response.
         [Michael Chaim Katzenelson]
Hilchos Avalus and Tefillah
         [Joseph P. Wetstein]
Lipsinging (sic)
         [David Griboff]
         [Michael Shimshoni]
Shabbat for one or both?
         [Mike Gerver]
Strangers and Minyan
         [Malcolm Isaacs]


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:35:27 -0500
Subject: 3rd Temple

    Hayim Hendeles asks about plumbing in the third Temple. The Gemara
states that the underground passages below the Temple are not holy. Hence,
one should be able to put heating into these passages and pipe it up.
Interesting that hot water heating systems were known in Roman days
as seen in the bath houses in Jericho and Bet Shaan. I don't know why
Herod did not install a similar since in the Temple.
I assume it would not be allowed to dig into the side walls and put plumbing
into the walls themselves. Similarly, I have never seen any discussion
what they did in Second Temple days for bathroom facilities especially since
indoor plumbing did not exist in those days. Presumbaly something was also
available in these underground passages.



From: <leora@...> (Leora Morgenstern)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 13:40:12 EST
Subject: Answer to Practical Question Regarding 3-day Purim

Last week,  I posted the following question to mail.jewish

QUESTION:   If a person spends the first two days of a 3-day Purim
=========   in Jerusalem and then leaves Israel on Saturday night,
            how does that person keep Purim?

The problem is that if the 15th of Adar (which is Purim in Jerusalem)
falls on Shabbat,  one observes Purim over 3 days.  According to
most authorities,  as I understand,  the Megillah is read, and
matanot la'evyonim are given on Friday (14 Adar);  the relevant kri'ah
is read on Shabbat,  and the se'udah and mishlo'ach manot take place
on Sunday.    Thus,  if one is planning to leave on Saturday night,
the question arises:  how does one fulfill the mitzvot of se'udah and
mishlo'ach manot?  Or is it preferrable to spend Purim outside of

I received a p'sak; in addition, several m.j. readers sent me sources.
I had hoped to look all of the sources up, and post my summary to
mail.jewish, but unfortunately, I didn't have the time.  I thought,
however, that it might be useful to post what I was told before Purim
just in case anyone else has this problem (with the caveat of CYLOR, of
course); I'll try to look up the sources and send a more complete
posting when I get back.

I was told:
The person spends all of the 14th and 15th of Adar in Jerusalem, thus
listening to the megillah and giving matanot la'evyonim on Friday (the
14th) and hearing the relevant torah reading on Shabbat.  As far as the
se'udah: the person should have in mind when having his meal on Shabbat
that this is his Purim se'udah; in addition, when he arrives at his
destination on Sunday, he has a meal at that time, and also has in mind
that that meal is his Purim se'udah.  He appoints an agent to deliver
mishlo'ach manot on Sunday.  (I suppose it is best to do this on
Saturday night.)  If the person wishes to celebrate Purim on the 14th of
Adar, on the other hand, he should spend that night outside Jerusalem.

(I should warn you that I've already heard different opinions; in
particular, that the se'udah should be had only when the person reaches
his destination, and not on Shabbat.)


From: Marc Shapiro <mshapiro@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 10:50:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Date and Composition of Zohar

Just one small correction. Danny Nir quoted Professor Leiman as saying 
that he has proof that the Zohar was written by during Roman times. 
Actually, what Leiman said was that he has proof that certain ideas in 
the Zohar go back. He proved this by a passage in which Jerome records 
something he heard from his Jewish teachers and the same passage appears 
in the Zohar. There is no question that the author of the Zohar didn't 
read Jerome. Leiman told me that even Scholem had to agree with this. As 
for the text of the Zohar, no one can seriously say that it goes back to 
RAshbi since people and events who lived after him are mentioned. The 
dispute between the traditionalists and the academics is whether only these 
passages are later interpolations but the overwhelming majority of the 
Zohar is ancient. 
The traditionalists say yes and the academics believe the entire work is 
composed during the middle ages although as with all works it contains 
some ancient ideas (I have yet to meet an Orthodox academic scholars who 
disagrees. In the previous generation there were some).
							Marc Shapiro


From: nelson%<bnlmcn.dnet@...> (Michael Chaim Katzenelson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 09:55:17 -0500
Subject: Geneology software and response.

The context of my previous submission to mj was the discussion
of using geneology software from the group in utah. The
discussion had focused on the question of whether software
is considered a vessel.  The submission was intended to
suggest that perhaps it is a sufficient point that the funds
would go to support avoda zorah.  This is based on a psak that
one does not rent a house from a nazirite organization.

Probably because I did not appropriately reference the discussion
to which the submission pertained, a response was submitted to 
several points that did not seem to be germaine to the point of the
submission.  Nonetheless I feel obligated to attempt to answer.

The context of the question to the Rav that elicited the
psak that one does not rent a house from the nazirim, is that
I wanted to know if it would be permitted to rent a house that
was owned by a local avoda-zorah group.  I don't give the name
of the Rav 1) because I didn't ask his permission, 2) because
I don't recall for sure which of two Ravs it was that I asked
the question of. (There is one Rav that I usually ask. In this
case from a long time ago, I might of asked another).

The term nazirim was used because there is an issur against causing
the name of an avodah-zorah to be mentioned.  Rather than split
hairs over the precise definition of the issur, whether it refers
only to the idol or to the idolatory as well, it seems safe to
use the same language to refer to them as is found in the Talmud.

The application of the psak to the situation in Israel is perhaps
a little tricky, but in my impoverished understanding, I agree that
we shouldn't be renting land in Israel from nazirim.  Its ours.


From: <jpw@...> (Joseph P. Wetstein)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 13:03:16 -0500
Subject: Hilchos Avalus and Tefillah

 From where is the minhag/halacha about an avel davening during the week
(every tefillah) and not shabbas? For a parent, the whole year? 
Under what conditions, if any, can an avel not daven? What would be
required to remove his chiuv?



From: David Griboff <TKISG02%<EZMAIL@...>
Date: Tue 15 Feb 1994 12:09 ET
Subject: Lipsinging (sic)

In a similar vein to the issue about correct pronunciations, I think it
should be stated that the term is 'lip-synch', not lipsing.  The term
evolves from the fact that the performer is trying to 'synch'ronize
their lips with the music that is being played, to make it look like
they are singing.  It is often done on television broadcasts at award
shows, so as not to require an entire band to be present for a
particular artist's 'performance', as well as avoiding the problem of an
artist not being able to perform if they are in 'bad voice' that night.

David Griboff

P.S.  This is not meant to be a commentary on the Miami Boys Choir issue,
just a clarification of a term...


From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 16:31:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Ostriches

Nadine Bonner asked in Volume 11 Number 82:

>  A writer I know has asked me if ostriches are considered kosher.  She is
>writing a novel and somehow this enters into the story.  I remember reading
>something in the Jerusalem Post about two guys who wanted to promote ostrich
>farming in Israel, but there was a question about the kashrut.  I can't
>remember how it was resolved.  Anyone know?

I had always *thought* that the  ostriches were not kasher but have no
source I could quote on it.  As  to ostrich farming, there is at least
one such farm in Israel in a kibbutz on the east coast of Yam Kinneret
(I have  forgotten its name).   I think that  they grow the  birds for
their  feathers.  As  to the  meat, if  it is  used at  all it  is for

 Michael Shimshoni


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 3:57:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Shabbat for one or both?

In v11n66, Gedalya Berger discusses the question of whether someone who
begins Shabbat earlier may ask someone who begins Shabbat later to do
melacha [work] for him, and concludes:

> The question was about a case of differing
> piskei halachah, not differing circumstance; in that case, the one who
> paskens like the Gr"a really believes that it is already Shabbat
> mide'oraita and that no Jew, including one who may pasken like Rabbeinu
> Tam, may now do melachah. In other words, according to his understanding
> of the halachah, the other person is simply wrong that it is not yet
> Shabbat.  In that case, I would be very surprised if any posek would
> permit asking the other person to do melachah for you.

I don't think this is necessarily true, and as evidence I'd like to relate
an incident that occurred in Beth Pinchas, the Bostoner Rebbe's shul, a
number of years ago. There was a power failure late on Shabbat afternoon,
and the power still had not gone on when it was time to daven ma'ariv.
The Rebbe's family normally waits 72 minutes after sunset before ending
Shabbat, but they begin ma'ariv about 10 minutes before that, so that 
Shabbat will be over when they finish ma'ariv. The Rebbe was out of town
at the time, but his son R. Meyer was there, and was worried that someone
might slip on the dark stairway going down to the shul from the upstairs
dining room where we were having shalosh seudos. So he asked who waited
less than 72 minutes, and asked those people to hold candles to light the
stairway. I can't imagine that he would have done this if he thought that
by lighting candles those people would be violating Shabbat mide'oraita.
It seems that he considered both minhagim to be valid, but he happened to 
follow the minhag of waiting 72 minutes.

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: <M.Isaacs@...> (Malcolm Isaacs)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 06:09:34 -0500
Subject: Strangers and Minyan

A couple of weeks ago, a family who live in our area but who are not
members of the shul, announced that their son will be celebrating his
becoming Bar-Mitsvah in our Shul.  In order to enable this, they had to
become members of the shul for 6 months (that's our shuls minhag
[custom]).  Their ketubah [Jewish marriage contract] had to be presented
for examination, and it turned out that they didn't marry under any (let
alone orthodox) Jewish auspices, rather, they were married in a registry

Frantic investigations into the mothers lineage determined that they
really were Jewish, and the boy did his bit in Shul last Shabbat.

This led to some discussion about the validity of an individuals claim
that s/he is Jewish.  Specifically, we are a small community, and don't
always get a Minyan on Friday nights or Shabbat afternoon.  When a
visitor arrives who claims to be Jewish, we accept that claim in the
interests of davvening with a Minyan.  We even give them an aliyah

This is not done in our shul only.  In most all other communities in my
experience, visitors are given aliyot, without verification of their
claim to be Jewish.  Note that I am not referring to someone who is
'known', eg a visiting Rav, but to someone who walks in off the street
and is unknown to anyone in Shul.

I would have thought that we should demand some kind of proof before we
include people in a Minyan and offer them Mitzvot.  Of course, this may
mean having ten men present, and not being able to say Barchu etc.

I'd like to point out that this is a real situation.  We have had a
Russian Oleh coming to Friday night davvening for the last couple of
weeks, and he has been the 10th man.  We don't know anything about him
other than his own claim to have made Aliyah four years ago, and then
moved to England a few months ago.

What do other MJ'ers think?

Chodesh Sameach, 



End of Volume 11 Issue 86