Volume 12 Number 17
                       Produced: Sun Mar 13  0:19:49 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Batel b'shishim and Salt
         [Stephen Phillips]
Camp for Boys
         [Yosef Kazen]
Disobeying Parents
         [Ezra Rosenfeld]
         [Rivka Finkelstein]
Intimidation of witnesses
         [Saul Djanogly]
Jewish names
         [Brian Sprei]
Judge's Changing Ruling
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Meat and Dairy
         [Arthur Roth]
Name of Parent on Ketuva and Re: non-Jewish Parents and
         [Evelyn Chimelis]
Prayer for the State of Israel
         [Ron Katz]
Reading a ketubah (2)
         [Janice Gelb, Warren Burstein]
Water drills and the Third Temple
         [David Charlap]


From: Stephen Phillips <stephenp@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Batel b'shishim and Salt

> From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)
> I always thought that the principle of batel b'shishim applies only to 
> accidental occurrences, i.e., that no amount of a non-kosher ingredient is
> acceptable if it is used intentionally.  Can anyone clarify?

I believe that the principal of "Ein Mevatlin Lechat'chiloh" [one may
not nullify a prohibibited substance in the first instance] only
applies to products made by Jews. Thus, food products made by
non-Jews may be eaten by Jews even if there is a prohibited ingredient
that is Botul Beshishim Lechat'chiloh (except in certain cases like
non-kosher rennet in cheese). Hence the need for a Hechsher on beer
from Israel (apart from the problems of Terumoh, Ma'aser, Chodosh,
Sh'mittah, etc.).

> From: <JMOSSERI@...> (Joey Mosseri)
> I have asked this question of many people in the past but have yet to
> receive a satisfactory response.
> Why when looking for salt for Pesah  all the Kashruth lists and booklets
> make it very clear that it should be  NOT IODIZED .
> Why is that ? Does it have to do with how they add iodine to the salt?

I'm not sure what iodised means, but I recall Rav Feldman of Golders
Green Beis Hamedrash telling us that he visited a salt factory in
England to check it out for Pesach. He discovered that in the same
factory another well known food product was being manufactured which
comprised a powder that was 100% chometz. Particles of this powder,
in the process of its being made, were being thrown into the air and
came to rest on the salt that was being processed in another part of
the factory. Since hearing this, I've never questioned the need for a
Hechsher on salt for Pesach.

Stephen Phillips


From: Yosef Kazen <yyk@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Camp for Boys

Re: Sue Zakar's request for boys camp (with scholarship also available)
Camp Gan Israel - Parksville, NY 

Brooklyn Office: Rabbi Yosef Futerfas Director
                 718- 774-4805
Registration is now taking place.
Tell him or his secretary you read about it on the Internet... and 
you can mention may name too. It might help ... :)

          Yosef Kazen                           E-Mail to:
     Director of Activities                   <yyk@...>
 Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace               <yyk@...>


From: Ezra Rosenfeld <zomet@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 12:57:06 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Disobeying Parents

I will admit that I haven't learnt the sugya in a while but if I remember 
correctly, the terms "Kibbud Av V'Eim" and obeying parents are not 
synonymous. The Gemara (Kiddushin) 
defines the mitzvah of "Kibbud" (Respect)  as "he should feed him, give 
him to drink, clothe him, 
wash him etc."; "Yir'ah" (Fear? Awe?) is defined as "he should not sit in 
his place, contradict him etc.". Obeying parental wishes regarding one's 
personal life (where to live, whom to marry, what job to take, where to 
spend the Pesach Seder) is clearly crucial to the fabric of the relations 
between parents and children, but is not a violation of the mitzvah per se. 

Clearly the Torah limits the rights of parents to demand "kibbud"
to Halachically permitted actions (See VaYikra 19,3 and Rashi ad.loc.).
Ezra Rosenfeld


From: <ac672@...> (Rivka Finkelstein)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:53 -0500
Subject: Hatikvah

Would anyone have any information on the Halachic status of
singing the Hatikvah or flying the Israeli flag. Does anyone know 
of any Issur.
Much Thanks, Rivka Finkelstein


From: <saul@...> (Saul Djanogly)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 09:03:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Intimidation of witnesses

L.J.Teitelman quoted Rebi Meir's view in Ketubot 19a that witnesses
should rather die than lie.  This is in fact Rav Hisda's interpretaton
of Rebi Meir's opinion and is immediately attacked by Rovo on the
grounds that the Halacha is that they SHOULD lie rather than die.  All
the Rishonim(see Shita Mekubezet) ask how could Rav Hisda hold this
view.  The consensus is that Rav Hisda holds that they are not duty
bound to die but it is a pious thing to do(Midat Chassidut).

saul djanogly


From: Brian Sprei <D7PCBDS@...>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Jewish names

At a wedding I attended the bride was born to a Jewish mother and a
Non-Jewish father.  The question arose what name to put in the kesuva.
The mesader kedushin said that the brides name should be written as "bas
the bride's Jewish grandfather" (the bride's mother's father).

Brian Sprei


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:56 -0500
Subject: Judge's Changing Ruling

There's been a lot of discussion recently here about whether a psak
may be distorted because of exteing circumstances. I would like to
make you aware of the Yam shel Shlomo (R. Shlomo Luria, the MaHaRShaL
) in Baba Kamma 38a who comments there on the discussion in the
Gemara. Chazal were asked as to the halacha if the ox of a Jew gores
the ox of a non-Jew, and they answered truthfully,that the Jew does
not have to pay, a response for which they got in trouble. (See the
Meiri there, who's quoted on the side of the Gemara in the Vilna Shas
for an interesting caveat). The Y.s.S. asks, why didn't they lie a
little lie to avoid the trouble? His answer is amazing: It is better
to face a death threat then to falsify Torah precepts!


From: <rotha@...> (Arthur Roth)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 08:32:54 -0600
Subject: Meat and Dairy

    Jack Reiner (MJ 12:14) asks whether various functions at McDonald's
(owner, worker, stockholder, etc.) are problematic because of the
prohibition against deriving any benefit from milk/meat combinations.
It is my recollection that the DEFINITION of such combinations requires
the meat to be kosher, so that, e.g., cheeseburgers made with treif meat
would not be a problem from this perspective.  Perhaps there are treif
restaurants in Israel which use kosher meat just because it's more
readily available there, in which case Jack's questions would still
apply to those restaurants, and I'd be interested in hearing the
answers.  I also wonder whether there is any problem for McDonald's
workers (or owners, stockholders, etc.) due to the fact that they may be
serving treif food to Jewish customers.

Arthur Roth


From: <Evelyn.Chimelis.Leeper@...> (Evelyn Chimelis)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 16:47:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Name of Parent on Ketuva and Re: non-Jewish Parents and

On Mar 10,  7:37pm, Aleeza Esther Berger wrote:
> Benjamin Rudman writes of a son of a non-Jewish father being called
> "Ploni ben plonis", i.e. using his mother's name.
> I've heard of such a person using something like "shmuel ben yaakov", 
> yaakov being his mother's father's name.  
> Anyone have more info?

On Mar 4,  3:32pm, Jonathan Traum wrote:
> Furthermore, at my friend's wedding, they used her mother's name on the
> ketubah (as in Rivka bat Sarah). The rabbi considered using "bat Avraham
> Avinu" (or simply "bat Avraham" to avoid possible confusion and/or
> embarrasment) but eventually decided not to.

My ketubah listed me as "bat Avraham."  I chose to take that as giving
the name Abraham as a default to all men who didn't have one.  (That may
not be what's going on, but that's *my* interpretation.)

Since I never had a naming ceremony using "Esther" as my Hebrew name
was equally arbitrary.

Evelyn C. Leeper | +1 908 957 2070 |
<ecl@...> / Evelyn.Leeper@att.com


From: katz%<milcse@...> (Ron Katz)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 09:03:30 -0500
Subject: Re:  Prayer for the State of Israel

The difference between "me gvul halvanon" and "mey hagvul balvanon"
is as follows.  The first means 'from the Lebanese border' while the
second means 'from the border in Lebanon.

The change to 'from the border in Lebanon" occurred when the I.D.F. invaded
Lebanon in the Peace in the Galilee war.  Until this day Israeli soldiers
are situated in southern Lebanon, therefore it is more appropriate to use
the term 'from the border in Lebanon'.  I have also heard "min halevanon"
meaning 'from Lebanon'.

With G-d's help all our soldiers will return, and so the wording can return
to 'from the Lebanese border'.


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 10:16:33 -0500
Subject: Reading a ketubah

In mail.jewish Vol. 12 #12 Digest, Aryeh Frimer said:
> After all, the only
> reason we read the ketubah in the first place is to serve as a hefsek
> (interruption) between the Kidushin and the nisuin so that we can make
> a second boreh pri ha-gafen. People don't normally read their contracts
> in public before hundreds of people. So reading the ketubah per se' has
> no halakhic standing.  

I got dramatic proof of this at a wedding I went to in Israel a few
years ago right after the shekel was devalued, where in the middle of
reading the ketubah the presiding rabbi went off on a five-minute
tangent about whether the shkalim mentioned were new shkalim or old!

Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
<janiceg@...>   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 

From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:28:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Reading a ketubah

Aryeh Frimmer writes:

>I've been to a variety of weddings where there is a "kri u-ketiv" in the
>ketubah - i.e., the ketubah is written accurately/halakhically but it is
>read in a fashion which does not embarrass the parties involved (e.g.,
>not well known that the bride or groom are gerim, that the bride is not
>a virgin (200 vs 100 zuz) or is a divorcee etc.).

I've never been to a wedding of a divorcee (at least I don't *know* that
I have), but I have heard on a number of occasions that even if it is
known that the bridge and groom lived together before the marriage that
the ketubah still says that the wife is a virgin.  I've wondered how
that doesn't invalidate the ketubah, but the more one suspects that such
is a concern in a given case the more one should keep one's mouth shut,
I suppose, so I've never looked into the sources on this.

 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 11:34:12 -0500
Subject: Water drills and the Third Temple

I remember learning, years ago, that no metal tools may be used to cut
the bricks for the Meit Ha'Mikdash.  Originally, there was a worm of
some kind that would eat through the rocks and that was used.  (I forget
the name of it, could someone supply it?).  One of the problems Torah
scholors have today is that creature is believed to be extinct.  So how
do we cut the stones without steel?

Well, it just ocurred to me that water jets may be a solution.  Today,
manufacturing facilities use extremely high-pressure water jets to cut
thick steel.  So perhaps such tools could be modified to cut stones from
a quarry.  Would this be halachicly acceptible?  I would think so.


End of Volume 12 Issue 17