Volume 12 Number 21
                       Produced: Tue Mar 22 12:03:55 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Canola Oil
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Cooked Matzos
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Cotton Seed Oil
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Kitniyot (2)
         [David Charlap, Danny Skaist]
Matzah Meal Cake at Seudah Shelishit
         [David Abrams]
Matzah meal on erev pesach
         [Ben Berliant]
Shabbat Erev Pesach
         [Leonard Oppenheimer]
What is Kitniyos?
         [Joe Slater]


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:04:45 -0500
Subject: Canola Oil

The CRC (Chicago Rabbinical Council)'s Rabbi B. Shandalov says that
rapeseeds (from which Canola Oil is manufactured) grow in fields that
are in too close proximity to grain fields, so that in the processing of
the oil chometz is quite likely produced as well, thus rendering proper
Pesach hashgacha impossible.


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:21:02 -0500
Subject: Cooked Matzos

I'm surprised that I (at least) have not seen Rav Ovadia Yosef's and the
Shemiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa's counsel for Erev Pesach on Shabbos
mentioned here: cooked matzo, which in the form of a matzo is HaMotzi,
and in the form of kneidlach is Mezonos. The She'arim Mitzuyanim
B'Halacha says that even non-gebrokts'ers can use gebrokts all of erev
Pesach (I guess similarly to the eigth day on which some are lenient),
so IMHO this is the best approach to Seuda Shlishis, and, in forms that
may be HaMotzi (i.e., a whole matzo immersed in kli rishon soup and
taken out whole after absorbing the taste of the soup) is probably the
best approach to the first seuda as well.


From: eisenbrg%<milcse@...> (Lon Eisenberg)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 09:01:49 IST
Subject: Cotton Seed Oil

Rabbi Morgenstern of Jerusalem stated that it is customary for
Ashkenazim in Jerusalem not to use it for Pesah.  He did not say it is
from kitniyot.  He did not say that Ashkenazim (from other places)
should not use it.


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 11:20:22 -0500
Subject: Kitniyot

<rbook@...> (Robert A. Book) writes:
>So, my question is: What is the definition of kitniyot?

I used to think it was grains that are not of the five species and
legumes.  But it seems to be changing these days.

>Since this is a difference between Ashkenazim and Sefardim, how did
>the Ashkenazim come to have this custom?

I believe it is stonger than custom.  I think it is a gezeira
(rabbinic prohibition).  The reason is that people were using grains
that are not of the five (like corn and rice) to bake cakes and
pasries and stuff.  This was destroying the spirit of Pesach, since
the people were eating what is basically the same things they always
ate, but with slightly different ingredients.  So the ban on Kitniot.

A provision was added, however, that in times that the Jewish
community is under economic stress, the ban on kitniot may be
temporarily lifted for one Pesach.

>And if it is "custom" (minhag?), and not, strictly speaking, halacha
>d'rabonim (rabinnic law) or halacha d'oraisa (Torah law), why is
>there a need to be more and more strict?

It's a gezeira.  Stronger than minhag.  But (I think) not quite as
strong as halacha drabonim

From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:33:56 -0500
Subject: Kitniyot

>Robert A. Book
>So, my question is: What is the definition of kitniyot?

Kitniyot are plants, sown in fields (like grains), the seeds of which
are used as food for people.  (mustard is a special case)

>Since this is a difference between Ashkenazim and Sefardim, how did the
>Ashkenazim come to have this custom?

The Rabbis of Ashkanaz proclaimed these seeds as not permissable for
consumption on pessach for one or another or both of 2 reasons. (as the
machloket now stands).
1) The Seeds are mixed with chametz grains and cannot be seperated.
2) Food made from these seeds look so much like the foods made with chomets
grains that many people may make the mistake of reproducing the food at home
using their original chametz receipies.  (Kitnayot pizza is on sale in

> And if it is "custom" (minhag?), and not,
>strictly speaking, halacha d'rabonim (rabinnic law) or halacha
>d'oraisa (Torah law), why is there a need to be more and more strict?

It is not custom.  It is a takana/gezara.  Like bigomy it is now assur for

>why is there a need to be more and more strict?

One is not allowed to be more strict.

But! If reason #2 is the only reason, then derivatives were never included
in the original ban !  After all using oil can not cause someone to use

As I read on Mail-Jewish last year

>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 02:11:52 -0400
>From: Aryeh Frimer <f66235@...>
>Subject: Corn Oil On Pesach
>   While Ashkenazim prohibit the use of Kitniyot on Pesach, many poskim
>(including Rav Yitzchak Elchanan Spector and Rav Kook  Zatsal) permit
>the use of Shemen Kitniyot (Kitniyot oils and derivatives - such as Corn
>oil and Syrup).



From: David Abrams <74067.762@...>
Date: 21 Mar 94 09:42:48 EST
Subject: Matzah Meal Cake at Seudah Shelishit

Lon, According to Rav Menachem Zupnik, the Rav of Congregation Bais
Torah U'Tefilla of Passaic, New Jersey, the reason matza meal cake can't
be used to be yotzei seuda shelishit on mezonot is as follows. We are
forbidden on Erev Pesach from eating anything with which we can be
yotzei the mitzvah of matzah on at the seder.  According to the Ramah
matzah which is ground into meal and then is combined with oil, water,
eggs, etc.. and is BAKED (emphasis on BAKED, as opposed to fried or
cooked) does not lose its original status as matzah and therefore can be
used to be yotzei the mitzvah of matzah at the seder.  According to this
opinion of the Ramah one could theoretically be yotzei at the seder with
sponge cake, brownies, mondel bread etc..  Therefore Ashkenazim cannot
use these items to be yotzei seudah shelishit on erev pesach that falls
on Shabbat. If, however, the matzah is fried or boiled then according to
the Ramah it loses its status as matzah and can be used on erev pesach.
Therefore, if you can figure out a way to eat fried matzah or matzah
balls for seudah shelishit then it is mutar.

Be Well and have a Chag Kasher v' Sameach

David Abrams <74067.762@...>


From: Ben Berliant <C14BZB@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:30:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Matzah meal on erev pesach

In m-j 12 #19  eisenbrg%<milcse@...> (Lon Eisenberg) asks:

>Why didn't he [the Rema] recommend mazah meal cake (as I believe someone
>wrote in to suggest)?  Did he not use gebrokhts (wet mazah meal)?  [When
>was not using gebrokhts "invented"?]

	The custom of not using gebrokhts (soaked matza) is of
comparatively recent vintage.  It certainly did not exist in the time of
the Rema, nor in the time of most of the early Acharonim.  That's why
the custom is not even universal among Ashkenazim.  

	As far as matzah meal cake is concerned, on Erev Pesach we do
not eat any matza or matzah product that would be acceptable for use at
the seder.  Since matzah meal could be used at the seder, it, too, is not
eaten on Erev Pesach.  The prohibition extends to matzah meal cakes.  
	Incidentally, according to our LOR, the prohibition does not
extend to those foods containing matzah meal which are boiled and not
baked.  So soup with knaidlach is OK.

				Happy Pesach,
				BenZion Berliant


From: <leo@...> (Leonard Oppenheimer)
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:23:34 -0500
Subject: Shabbat Erev Pesach

> I am confused about the proper procedure this year for making HaMotzi on
> Shabbat, Erev Pesach.  I have heard that it is permissible to either (1)
> daven early and make Hamotzi on regular Challah before the zman of biur,
> or (2) the make Hamotzi at the usual time on egg matzah.  Now what is
> the reason for not doing the latter?  

The confusion arises because the second premise is mistaken.  It is
important to keep in mind that there are 2 separate prohibitions
regarding Chametz on Pesach

1) "Bal Ye'Roeh" - One must not have in one's POSSESSION a Chometz
article larger than an olive.  By rabbinic law, one should not have even
smaller particles, if they are of value and have not been nullified by

2) Eating - One may not EAT even the minutest particle of Chametz,
whether or not one owns it..

The reason most poskim, including R. Moshe Feinstein (Vol I, #158),
recommend using egg matzoh is because it is only problematic in regard
to eating, but not in regard to possessing.  The reason for this is
based on the Talmudic dictum that dough mixed with fruit juice or egg,
and ZERO water, can not become halachically Chametz.  Ashkenaz Jews
follow the ruling of Tosafot that we do not eat Matzot made of these
doughs, because we fear that a small drop of water inevitably got in the
process causing a small amount of Chometz.  (For the elderly and infirm,
who cannot eat regular Matzoh, these Matzot are permitted.)

Nevertheless, when it comes to possessing such matzoh, there is no
problem of Bal yeRoeh (above).

Therefore, the reccomendation to eat egg matzoh is specifically to eat
it before the time that Chometz is prohibited.  The only advantage
derived is that one need not worry about any possible crumbs being left
over and remaining in one's home over Pesach.  However, one should NOT
eat the egg matzoh on regular Pesach dishes, since the crumbs of egg
matzoh are forbidden to eat on Pesach (exceptions noted above).

Lenny Oppenheimer


From: Joe Slater <joe@...>
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 21:45:16 +1000 (EST)
Subject: What is Kitniyos?

My understanding of the definition of Kitniyos is that they have two 
1) They are "Maase Kedera"; the sort of thing you cook in a pot; and
2) They are "gathered in a heap"? - I didn't quite follow this one.

It seems to me that the first requirement means that they are made into a 
porridge. Until recently this was the basic food of most of the world:
boiled grains or beans. I don't understand the second requirement, unless 
it means that they are the sort of things that are individually valueless 
so that you measure them by the pound or sack or whatever.

It seems to me that Kitniyos are not well defined, and that this is a 
cause of what another poster called "halachic inflation". We treat some 
things as Kitniyos that were never known to our ancestors - peanuts and 
maize - and other things that don't seem to satisfy the "Maase Kedera" 
requirement, like mustard.

I am also confused about the extension of Kitniyos, and would appreciate 
it if someone can tell me what the following are considered. In the 
absence of any information I will treat them as Kitniyos, but I feel that 
we should be careful not to extend prohibitions lightly.

Corn on the cob - I understand that this is a different variety to that 
which is used for polenta, if that makes a difference. Does the mode of 
preparation make a difference?

Bean sprouts - sprouted mung beans, but also different sorts of things 
which are certainly Kitniyos when not sprouted. Does the stage of the 
plant's life cycle make a difference?

Snow peas - these are a special variety of pea bred to have very small 
seeds and a very thick, sweet pod. You eat the pod, lightly steamed or 
stir-fried. Is a *relative* of Kitnoyos prohibited?

Pine nuts - these are small nuts extracted from (I understand) pine 

Any advice would be appreciated. I haven't yet asked my Rov, because I 
want to get more than the usual "for eight days you can't live without 
this?" reply.



End of Volume 12 Issue 21