Volume 12 Number 23
                       Produced: Wed Mar 23 18:36:04 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

'mesubin' in the 'fir kashes'
         [Meylekh Viswanath]
Egg Matzah on Erev Pesach
         [Jerrold Landau]
         [Susan Slusky]
Matzah Meal Cake at Seuda Shelishis
         [Yechiel Pisem]
Remembering missing Israeli soldiers at your Seder
         [Aleeza Esther Berger]
Source of Mitzva of Eating Matzah
         [Jerrold Landau]
Times for Egg Matzo
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
wheat oil
         [Danny Skaist]


From: Meylekh Viswanath <PVISWANA@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 10:21:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 'mesubin' in the 'fir kashes'

In the 'fir kashes' we say:
she b'khol haleylos anu okhlin, beyn yoshvin uveyn mesubin..

A grammatical query regarding the last word: mesubin.  I think it is
quite clear that the root of the word is 'samekh beys beys.'  But, what
binyan does it belong to?  It would seem that it is either pual or
hufal, because of the kubutz.  The better bet would seem to be hufal,
due to the initial mem.  But that doesn't work either--the kubutz is in
the wrong place.  So what is it?

The surprising answer is: piel.  But that doesn't seem to work
either--where do we have a kubutz in piel?  Well, it seems that the
original form of the word was 'mesibin' with a khirik, which is clearly
piel.  However, the influence of the following bilabial consonant, the
beys, affected the preceding vowel and converted it from an unrounded
(mid) vowel to a rounded (front) vowel.  It is easy to see that the
shape of the mouth for the formation of beys is much closer to the
corresponding shape for kubutz than for the khirik.

(This is abstracted from an informal talk given by the linguist, Aharon
Maman.  All misunderstandings and errors are mine alone.]

Meylekh Viswanath
P.V. Viswanath
Rutgers Graduate School of Management, 92 New St, Newark NJ 07102
Tel: (201) 648-5899  Fax: (201) 648-1459  email: <pviswana@...>


From: <LANDAU@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 13:56:03 EST
Subject: Egg Matzah on Erev Pesach

Since my original posting, there have been several other postings dealing
with egg matzah on erev Pesach.  There seems to be much confusion on this
issue.  I have since done some research, and these are my findings.
There is much room for confusion on this issue, because there seems to
be a three way machloket amongst poskim.  First of all, even for Ashkenazim
who do not eat egg matzah on Pesach, egg matzah is not considered chometz
at all.  Meikar hadin it is permitted to be eaten on Pesach.  Due to
various fears that it may become chometz nukshe under some circumstances,
Ashkenazim have the minhag (a very strong minhag, but nevertheless a minhag),
to not eat egg matzah on Pesach.  If egg matzah were forbidden meikar hadin,
there would be no room for a kulah for the elderly and sick.  If something
is asur, it is asur.  However, being a strong minhag, it is permitted to
the elderly and sick.  Therefore there is debate as to its status on erev
Pesach.  (See Rabbi Shimon Eider's hilchot Pesach for a discussion of egg
matzah in general).
The three way machloket is as follows
1. The most common view is that the egg matzah has to be eaten before the
end of the 4th hour on erev Pesach (just like regular chometz).
2. There is a view that egg matzah may be able to be eaten until the end of
the sixth hour.  The reason for this view is that, not eating egg Matzah is
a minhag, and the issur of eating chometz in the 4th and 5th hours of erev
Pesach is derabanan (the issur deorayta starts at the end of the 6th hour),
we don't need to make the minhag of egg matzah fall on the issur derobonan.
3. The third view, which is a minority view, and is brought down in the
Aruch Hashulchan, permits eating egg matzah all day on erev Pesach (which
in practice means until the 10th hour, since from the 10th hour and on,
it is forbidden to kovea a seuda at all on erev Pesach -- whether on Shabbat
or a weekday.
These are the three views for Ashkenazim. IMHO, if it is not too diffucult,
it makes sense to follow the first view, however, not being too afraid if
one overshoots the 4th hour by a little bit.  The third view seems to be
a minority view, and one probably should not go by it.
I hope that this sheds some light on a confusing issue.  Chag Kasher
Jerrold Landau

[similar contribution from Yechiel Pisem. Mod.]


From: <segs@...> (Susan Slusky)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:52:37 EST
Subject: Kitniyot

From: <david@...> (David Charlap) on why the ban on 

>...people were using grains
>that are not of the five (like corn and rice) to bake cakes and
>pasries and stuff.  This was destroying the spirit of Pesach, since
>the people were eating what is basically the same things they always
>ate, but with slightly different ingredients.  So the ban on Kitniot.

I think we're back in trouble then, even without kitniyot. 
I can now buy, certified pesadike by the O-U, pancake mix, oodles of
cake mixes, chocolate chip cookie mixes, noodles, cookies. They're
all made with matzo cake meal, which is finer than matzo meal.
Most have sodium bicarbonate for fluffiness, which is just what I use
during the year to make cakes and cookies although then the flour
hasn't been baked and reground. Seems like the same problem all over

Susan Slusky


From: Yechiel Pisem <ypisem@...>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 15:44:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Matzah Meal Cake at Seuda Shelishis

In reply to #21 posting Matzah Meal Cake at Seuda Shelishis:

See Gemora Pesachim, around the end of the last Perek.  It says there 
that one may eat sponge cakes etc. at a time when one can't eat Matza.  I 
will try BS'D to post a full qoute.

Chag Kasher VeSameach.
Yechiel Pisem


From: Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 15:15:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Remembering missing Israeli soldiers at your Seder

Forwarded from: Eli Birnbaum <birnbaum@...>

               The Student & Academics Department
                 The World Zionist Organization

(Please bring this page to your seder and include it as a
supplement to the readings in your Haggadah.)

                        FOUR MORE SONS

     Ron Arad, Zachary Baumel, Zvi Feldman, Yehuda Katz -- These
are the names of four sons who cannot be at the seder table this
year.  We must ask four more questions for them.

     While fighting for their people and the security of the
State of Israel, these sons, soldiers in Israel Defense Forces,
were captured in Lebanon and taken prisoner.

     Israel's missing soldiers are denied the human rights
guaranteed by international law.  They were never treated as
prisoners of war, but rather as hostages, currently denied any
form of contact with their families or with any Israeli or
international human right organization.

     These Sons are being held hostage years after international
efforts have secured the release of all other western hostages
who were being held in Lebanon.  We know nothing of the
conditions under which they are being held, nor can we or their
families and friends even be positive that they are still alive.

     Passover is the holiday of freedom.  We cannot sit
comfortably, enjoy a pleasant evening  and let the mood of
celebration allow us to forget that there are those who are less
fortunate.  The work of securing freedom for out people is not
yet done.
     In the past we have remembered the Jews who were enslaved
by the Nazis, the millions who perished during the Holocaust, and
the resistance fighters who fought for their freedom in places
such as the Warsaw Ghetto; we have dedicated our seders to the
prisoners of conscience, Jews who suffered persecution but were
not allowed to emigrate.  This year, even after so many
successful struggles for freedom, even though almost 500,000
oppressed Jews have made aliyah and chosen to start a new life
in Israel; each of us must continue to say, "Let my people go!"
to the modern day Pharaohs who hold the key to the release of our
sons.  Perhaps, if our voices strong enough, Ron Arad, Zachary
Baumel, Zvi Feldman, and Yehuda Katz will be able to celebrate
Passover Next Year in Jerusalem."

(You may want to read this after the section of the four sons.  You may also 
want to leave an empty chair or place setting at your table as a symbol of
hope that our missing sons will return home to their families).

--Aliza Berger


From: <LANDAU@...> (Jerrold Landau)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 14:07:54 EST
Subject: Source of Mitzva of Eating Matzah

In a previous issue, Jeffrey Claman asks about the source of the mitzah of
eating matzah.  The Torah indicates many times that one should eat matzah for
seven days, however, the gemara derives out that only on the first night
is there an obligation.
This is because, in one place (Devarim, in Kol Bechor, the leining of the
eighth day of Pesach), the Torah says that matzah should be eaten for six
days.  The Gemara derives out that, in order to reconcile the six days with
the seven days, that the mitzah of matzah is only obligatory for one day,
and the eating of matzah is optional for the final six days of Pesach.
The obligation for the first night is from the Pasuk in Shmot (in the perek
of Hachodesh Hazeh in Bo) "baerev tochlu matzot" "in the evening you shall
eat matzah".  This pasuk indicates a clear obligation to eat matzah on the
first night of Pesach.  On the second night, because of the general principal,
that everything that is obligatory on the first day of yomtov is also
obligatory (albeit derabonon) on the second night of yomtov, there is also
a mitzah derabanan to eat matzah.
Some gedolim (the Gra in particular) are bothered that the pshat (simple
meaning) of several pesukim in the Torah indicates that matzah must be eaten
for all the days of Pesach.  Therefore, the Gra held that it is a mitzah to
eat matzah all days of Pesach.  Many people today feel that it is a mizvah
kiyumi as opposed to a mitzvah chiyvi (i.e. a non obligatory act but
nevertheless a mitzva, as opposed to an obligatory mitzvah) to eat matzah
all the days of Pesach.
The Gra used to have a seuda shlishit on the last day of Pesach (something
which is not generally done on yomtov, only shabbat) in order to say goodbye
to the precious mitzvah of eating matzah.
In any case, it is very difficult, especially on the yomtov days, to avoid
eating matzah every day.
Chag Kasher Vesamayach,
Jerrold Landau


From: <YOSEF_BECHHOFER@...> (Yosef Bechhofer)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 16:40:20 -0500
Subject: Times for Egg Matzo

There seems to be some confusion as to the last permissible time to eat
egg matzo on erev Pesach / Shabbos this year. This is not meant by any
means as a PSAK - ask your LOR - but for information:

There is a contradiction in the REMA in Shulchan Aruch as to the
permissibility of egg matzos after the last time to eat chometz on E.P.
There are several resolutions to this contradiction, one of which
(advanced by the Aruch HaShulchan and others) allows one to eat egg
matzo all day on E.P. This means, until plag hamincha (the beginning of
the halachic tenth hour), a full meal may be made of egg matzo (although
this should be avoided after chatzos - midday - l'catchila), and after
plag hamincha one may have only less than a k'beitza of the egg matzo
(this, BTW, mirrors the psak for the recent Purim se'uda).

Others, however, including Reb Moshe Feinstein zt"l, address the
aforementioned contradiction with a resolution that forbids egg matzo
for Ashkenazim after the last time to eat chometz on E.P. Thus,
according to this line of reasoning, of course, some other means to
fulfill Se'uda Shlishis (i.e., cooked matzo) must be found.

BTW, concerning gebrokts, it is interesting to note that this minhag is
mentioned by the 14th century (I believe) Rishon, the Ra'avan.
Ironically, perhaps, although he was a "Yekke", we "Yekkes" certainly
are not adherents of this minhag!


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 08:14:43 -0500
Subject: wheat oil

>Yosef Bechhofer
>The CRC (Chicago Rabbinical Council)'s Rabbi B. Shandalov says that
>rapeseeds (from which Canola Oil is manufactured) grow in fields that
>are in too close proximity to grain fields, so that in the processing of
>the oil chometz is quite likely produced as well, thus rendering proper
>Pesach hashgacha impossible.

Is oil made from the 5 species of grain chometz ?  Why ?

Grains cannot become chometz from contact with oil, so the unpressed grains
are not chometz.  Why not use Wheat oil for pessach ?



End of Volume 12 Issue 23