Volume 12 Number 43
                       Produced: Thu Apr  7 22:57:29 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Baruch Goldstein in Halacha
         [saul djanogly]
Chevron Killings
         [B Lehman]
Chevron Massacre (2)
         [Yechiel Wachtel, Yitzchok Adlerstein]
Hebron Massacre (3)
         [David Fuchs, Aaron E. Naiman, Shimon Lebowitz]
Hebron Massacre posting
         [Jack Abramoff]


From: <saul@...> (saul djanogly)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:57:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Baruch Goldstein in Halacha

I think a dispassionate Halachic analysis of B.Goldstein's actions would
be useful.

1.The prohibition of murder applies to gentiles as well (although only 
punishable  by heaven .See Cesef Mishna Hil.Rozeach 2.11)

2.Suicide is forbidden for a Jew.Even if causing one's death at the hand of
others does not rank as suicide,B.G. certainly recklessly endangered his
own life which is forbidden.

3.Does a Jew pursuing a gentile become a Rodef,mandating other Jews to kill
him if there is no other way of stopping him?

4.Does a Jew who by his actions,indirectly puts other Jew's lives in danger
become a Rodef,mandating etc.?

5.B.G. was guilty of Chilul Hashem.See Rambam Hil.Yesodei Hatorah 5.11.
A  Jew must behave in a way that brings credit to the Jewish people and not
the reverse.

Although Kach have been excoriated,the Rambam in Hil.Melachim Chap.6 1-4
clearly states that , a people conquered by Israel during a
non-obligatory war,must accept a second-class status,not be put in
positions of any authority over Jews,and be prepared to serve the king
both financially and physically.  If they do not accept these terms ,and
choose to resist rather than flee/evacuate all adult males are to be

Does the above Halacha not apply to the West Bank etc.(which were
conquered during an obligatory war of self-defence)?If not ,why not?

Please keep any answers Halachic rather than emotive.The truth lies in
the Torah rather than in our emotions and contemporary mores.

saul djanogly

[received shortly afterwards. Mod.]

[Just above] ,I suggested that killing a gentile was considered murder. 
In fact this only applies in peacetime. At times of war Chazal said
'Kill even the best of gentiles (who comprise the enemy)'
See Tos.Avod.Zara 26b and Shach Yoreh Deah 158.1

Whether a Jew should forfeit his life to obey this dictum is arguable.
(Is it part of the Mitzva of Milchemet Mizva,in which self-evidently one
must risk one's own life but is a suicide mission permissable?)
If reprisals against other Jews are inevitable,surely it is forbidden?
Does this inevitability make him into a Rodef mandating other Jews to 
kill him if this is the only way of stopping him?

saul djanogly


From: <BLEHMAN@...> (B Lehman)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 02:53:07 -0400
Subject: RE: Chevron Killings

 As the issue is a heavy one, I will try and keep my cool in answering
Marc's posting.

  Marc answered his own questions on Baruch Z'"L (YES...Z"L), with his
question "how we got to this stage...."

 I do not expect any body who lives out of Israel, to understand what
went on here. But I do expect them to be far more hesitant in passing
judgment. To even imply that we should add yemach shemo to his name is
an audacity. Where have we arrived if our "brothers" are more extreme
than our enemies? When they call fellow Jews names reserved for Jew
haters such as Hitler etc.
 Baruch was or was not insane. It makes no difference, what he did was
motivated out of total love for his fellow Jews.

  As to why he did it or better still what drove him to do it? (with out
condoning it). One has to live here, especially in the post '67
territories to understand the immense pain at what the government is
doing to our country and our religion. (the 2 of which are totally
intertwined). This is a government with no values other than pleasing
the rest of the world.

    As for the person who is no longer orthodox as a result of "talk in
the shool and a paper article" I assume she found the excuse she was
looking for not to be orthodox. Most of the orthodox world condoned what
 If Baruch was this woman's son or yours for that matter would we stop

 Finally if you are worried about the "sake of our Lord" then I expect
to you Marc to post a letter to this forum to cry out as to what is
happening in Israel totally apposing our lord.


From: Yechiel Wachtel <YWACHTEL@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 16:18:53 PDT
Subject: Chevron Massacre

	I would like to comment on the tone of Marc's submission
regarding Baruch Goldstien Z'l and offer a look from another
prospective.  I do not in any way want to enter in a discussion of if
what he did was right or wrong, as that is not the aim of my submission,
I heard a few opinions from Roshie yeshivos and Rebbes and they all are
along the same lines that Mark mentions.
	When we came on Aliya nearly eleven years ago we were "put up"
at the absorption center in Kirayt Arba. Our upstairs neighbors where a
young couple and their newly born child, the Goldstiens.  I was not close
with them, but we were friendly.  Baruch was in the Army at the time,
spending most of his time at the Mimshal tzvaey as the Dr.  Whenever he
came home he had quite a bit of knocks on the door, people bringing
their sick children to him for an examination, at all hours of the day
and night.  I do not remember him turning anybody away, even after hard
and long Army shifts and a newborn at home.  I remember him as a quiet
helpful guy with a heart of gold.  We had no contact with them for the
past 9 years or so, but we have friends in Kiryat Arba.  What could have
made Dr. Goldstien do what he did, I can only speculate, and before
anyone decides on leaving orthodoxy let me repeat what Benny Lehman
wrote in to mj a while back. Al tadin es chavercha ad shtagya lemkomo.
(do not judge your friend until you are in his shoes) .  Baruch was the
Dr. that had to report the details of the Gross boy hy'd to his parents.
As a resident of the kirya he had to travel the dangerous roads back and
forth to Yerushalyim.  He had to come to the aid of the numerous who
were injured daily by Arab stones.  Do we even know how many incidents
are not even reported, how many rocks hit cars and terrified the drivers
and little children in the back seats, he took care of?  Was it reported
that just a week before the massacre while a group of American tourists
where davening on Shabbos at Maaras Ha Machpela a group of Arabs ran
among them screaming kill the Jews!!  And what of the murders of Baruchs
friends the Lapids hy'd?  The list I am sure goes on.  While it may be
hard for someone at Harvard to comprehend how a "quiet helpful guy with
a heart of gold" could do what he did.  I suggest you try living in
Kiryat Arba for a month or so, you may be able to comprehend what our
fellow Jews are living through.
	I again repeat, I do not even wish to comment on the action that
was committed itself, the wrongdoing is obvious, what may not be so obvious
is what led to the action and what the government did or did not do to
stop it from occurring.  

From: Yitzchok Adlerstein <ny000594@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 01:40:14 -0400
Subject: Chevron Massacre

Marc Shapiro issued a challenge to introspect and determine what it is
that allows Orthodoxy to become distorted and perverted by its
loyalists.  He is right to call for this: the press hasn't relented in
their determination to find the chink in the armor of Torah Judaism.

I will make a modest, if not controversial contribution.  As a system
that tries to do as much as Yiddishkeit does (perfect man and the world;
make man a ben olam-habah, etc.), it is necessarily complex.  The more
complex a system, the more opportunities to foul up.  (The more noble
and elevated it is, the more likely it will be perverted.  Viz. the
gemara that Titus insisted on violating the Sanctum Sanctorum with a
prostitute, and an accepted interpretation that the gemara's point is
that great kedusha can lead to great degredation.)  What are the checks
and balances to insure that people, even well meaning ones do not remake
the Torah in their own image?

I believe we should note well one phenomenon of the aftermath of the
massacre.  Torah leadership ON THE HIGHEST LEVEL excoriated the attack.
Left, right, and center.  In Yeshivat Har Etzion, the Roshei Yeshiva
proclaimed a fast day, and leined "Veyechal!"  On the charedi right,
Yated Neeman, the house organ of Degel HaTorah and Rav Schach, shlit"a,
deplored the attack in the strongest terms.  Not just because of the
consequences, but because of the murder of [seeming] innocents; the
taking up of the hands of Esav instead of the propriety of Yaakov; more.

What's the common denominator?  When you go to the gedolim all the way 
at the top  (no matter whether you identify with the left or right!), 
you find people with a much clearer view of the truths of Torah.  If you 
ignore them and do your own thing, you may create a monster.  Remember - 
it is far easier to create a code of action, than a code of how a Jew 
should THINK or EMOTE.  Rav Yisroel Salanter, well over 100 years ago, 
claimed that in his travels around Europe he came across people who 
lived the life styles of tzadikkim, but had the weltanschauung of 
heretics.  The way to avoid this is to seek out and accept the counsel 
of gedolei Torah - the ones all the way at the top of the heirarchy, not 
the "middle management" ones.

Yitzchok Adlerstein
Yeshiva of LA 	 


From: <FUCHS@...> (David Fuchs)
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:26:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebron Massacre

	The massacre in Hebron is not to be celebrated. A fanatic went
on a killing spree and slaughtered innocent people.  Perhaps he thought
he had good intentions when the matter was planned out, but Baruch
Goldstein was wrong in his actions.  The effects of his actions have
only put more pressure on Israel to continue these "peace" negotiations
(after all how can you negotiate with an organization that says in its
charter it wants to destroy you?).  Aside from the obvious violent
reprocussions (witness the event in NY) the world now blames Israel for
this mess.
	The world media has blamed israel for this tradegy, and the
governemtn is willing to accept it.  What everyone must realize is that
the actions of a minority group do not reflect on the entire society.
does not change that.  On the same note, Goldstein's actions do not
reflect on the majority view of Orthodox Jewry.Does the media consider
the actions of David Koresh indicitive of all Christendom? Obviously
not, and that same logic is applicable here.  What we must look at is
that the PLO has and does advocate such violence, against Jews and Arab
dissenters.  How can we negotiate with such an organization? The Israeli
governemnt will realize this, G-d willing before it's too late.

David Fuchs

From: <naiman@...> (Aaron E. Naiman)
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 19:03:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebron Massacre

Marc Shapiro <mshapiro@...> wrote:
>                                                        ... (One Orthodox 
> Jew who was exposed to this has told me that she no longer believes in 
> Orthodoxy. I think she went from faith to heresy in one week, but  can we 
> blame her? She was taught that Orthodoxy teaches respect for human life 
> and then she saw the reaction in her shul she gave up all belief)

     Without getting into the rest of the posting, something Rabbi
Wein often says is appropriate here: "Do not confuse Jews with
Judaism."  Similarly: "Do not confuse Orthodox Jews with Orthodox
Judaism."  I find I need to apply this maxim more often than I would
like to think.  (I would include myself in this category, but _I know_
when I do something unOrthodox--no confusion there :-(.)

     While it is certainly not our/my place to blame anyone, the
events which occurred and the subsequent reactions B"H do not effect
my Orthodox beliefs at all.  I hope this woman will understand and
feel the same.

Aaron Naiman | IDA/SRC          | University of Maryland, Dept. of Mathematics
             | <naiman@...> | naiman@math.umd.edu

From: Shimon Lebowitz <LEBOWITZ@...>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:43:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebron Massacre

Just a few comments in response to Marc Shapiro's letter -

WARNING! if anything in this sounds to you like i (h"v - heaven forbid)
         'approve' of this massacre, YOU ARE **MISTAKEN**.
         (BTW - note where i work :-) ).

1. i have been slightly surprised by the 'common knowledge' that
   baruch goldstein murdered all those people. it is stated as FACT
   on the media, by the judges conducting the inquiry, and by the 'general
   public' - he is 'the murderer'.
   as far as i remember from other cases, if he had survived, he would
   be called 'the accused murderer', or some such term.
   is it simply that dead people have no civil rights, and are guilty
   till proven innocent?
2. i have never yet heard what goldstein died of. is this a state secret,
   or did i just miss it in the papers? what sort of weapon killed him?
   as a 'way-out idea' - was he killed BEFORE the shots were fired??
   (was he killed by a 'galil' rifle?)
3. this afternoon AT LEAST EIGHT jews were killed, and TENS were wounded
   in a car bomb attack in afula. all afternoon the radio has been interviewing
   people who have 'expected', and 'understood' the motivation for this attack.
   it was 'obvious' that there would be a 'revenge killing' on the 40th day
   after the massacre. funny - these people didn't say about b.g. 'oh, of
   course we "understand" - it was a revenge killing'. (no - this is not a plug
   for revenge either - I DO *NOT* 'understand' terrorists just because they
   want revenge for revenge for ...).

Shimon Lebowitz                         Bitnet:   LEBOWITZ@HUJIVMS
VM System Programmer                    internet: <lebowitz@...>
Israel Police National HQ.              fax:      +972 2 309-888
Jerusalem, Israel                       phone:    +972 2 309-877


From: Jack Abramoff <abramoff@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 22:34:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebron Massacre posting

Mark Shapiro's acerbic posting about the admirers of Baruch Goldstein was
quite troubling.  Although our moderator did a fine job in bringing this
tirade under some control, one would assume that those who purport to
accept halacha would remember the proscriptions against nevul peh apply
equally to written communication.  

With regard to the maaseh about the female acquaintance who left her faith
over seeing Jews supportive of Goldstein, I have to say that I find this
the stuff of fiction.  If this is true, what kind of statement is this
about her faith to begin with?  I think we would all appreciate the
barring of postings like this.  I am sure this is true for those who might
even agree with the sentiments of the writer. 

Jack Abramoff


End of Volume 12 Issue 43