Volume 14 Number 20
                       Produced: Thu Jul 14 12:55:23 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chumrot Revisited
         [Janice Gelb]
         [Linda Kuzmack]
Minhag HaGaon HaChassid MiVilna
         [Marc Aronson ]
Minhag HaGra
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Motzei Shabbat of Tisha B'Av
         [Yisrael Medad]
Rabbi Hirsh of Netura Karta
         [Danny Skaist]
         [Harry Weiss]
Tisha B'av on Saturday Night
         [Ezra L Tepper]
Women and Covenant
         [Aryeh A. Frimer]
Work Ethics Question
         [Avi Witkin]


From: <Janice.Gelb@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 13:36:48 +0800
Subject: Chumrot Revisited

Yitzchok Adlerstein writes:
> Remember, even if there are many who insist on glatt for the wrong
> reasons, all those who do are willing to shell out more $$$ for the
> stuff, as long as it comes with the proper frum trappings.  And even if
> there are many who would eat non-glatt for all the right reasons, there
> are also a considerable number who just want something with a Rabbi's
> name on it, and don't want to know anything beyond that.  

[deleted an illuminating but lengthy discussion on glatt meat plants 
being in the East next to frum communities and being trustworthy 
and non-glatt meat plants being in the MidWest and attracting only 
miskenim as mashgichim]

> Does it have to be this way?  Of course not.  The Adas Yeshurun Kehilla
> maintained a non-glatt production of the highest caliber.  But for the
> most part, if an owner is going to upgrade to a higher standard, why
> would he want to be non-glatt?  Why wouldn't he want to include that
> huge market of chumra-people who will pay extra?  And if he doesn't want
> all the encumberances of the better shochtim and halachic rigor, he
> still has all those customers who will buy non-glatt for the wrong,
> non-discriminating reasons.
> You decide whether glatt in America is just another pietistic exercise.
> Or whether the cards of the market are stacked against non-glatt.

As I've stated before, I would like to have the choice of buying
reliable non-glatt meat rather than paying extra for a chumrah that I
personally think is unnecessary. I would prefer to see the Jewish
community, which currently says  "Well, you can't really trust most
non-glatt butchers today so we might as well all go glatt," say instead
"We need to supervise non-glatt butchers more closely so they are
reliable." As far as market conditions go, you yourself say that there
are some consumers who would just as soon buy non-glatt as glatt,
especially since it's cheaper, so a butcher offering both would make up
in volume of non-glatt buying what s/he lost in not offering only glatt
at a higher price.

Janice Gelb                  | (415) 336-7075     
<janiceg@...>   | "A silly message but mine own" (not Sun's!) 


From: Linda Kuzmack <kuzmack@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 00:16:37 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: Mamzerut

Yitzchak Unterman <Yitzchak.Unterman@...> writes (stuff deleted):

>It seems clear that in the same way that G-d created the world in such a
>way that children, through no fault of their own, are born with a physical
>or mental disability, so too the rules of the world function so that some
>children may be saddled with an halachic disability in that they cannot
>marry a non-mamzer.  In both cases the Creator has designed the world with
>such inequities, and it is no more appropriate to decry, or attempt to
>change, the latter case than it is to do so in the former.

This post helped to crystallize in my mind why I felt uncomfortable about 
this argument as it was presented earlier by others.

To be sure, we do not understand why Hashem created the world so these 
things happen.  To my mind, however, the essence of the halakhic approach 
is that "the secrets of Hashem are none of our business", but we *are* 
told how *we* are supposed to act in the world.

In a way, I agree with Yitzchak in his statement "it is no more
appropriate to decry, or attempt to change, the latter case than it is to
do so in the former" but I give it the opposite interpretation.  Everyone
would agree that, when children are born with physical or mental
disabilities, we are commanded to do everything in our power to cure them,
relieve their suffering, and help them to live as normal lives as possible
(whether or not the disability is the result of immoral or foolish
behavior by their parents).  I would suggest that the same holds for the
mamzer.  There was some discussion on MJ last summer (if I remember) to
the effect that this is what poskim do in practice in cases of mamzerut
[the status of children born of forbidden sexual unions; I don't know a
shorter translation that's accurate]: they try to find ways to allow
marriage in the particular case before them.  This would also explain the
otherwise puzzling rule someone quoted that we do not reveal the status of
a mamzer whose status is not recognized. 

Arnie Kuzmack


From: <MARCARONSON@...> (Marc Aronson )
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 23:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Minhag HaGaon HaChassid MiVilna

David Curwin raises some very interesting points regarding minhagei haGra.
In addition to "Maasei Rav" a brilliant biography of the Gra had been
written by Betzalel Landau of Jerusalem -- a noted ilui and talmid chochom
-- by the name of HaGaon HaChassid MiVilna.
Unfortunately, in the original Hebrew work, Landau omits references to
the machlokes -- unconscionable in my opinion -- till you meet Landau and
are swept off your feet by his ahavat briyot and tzidkut.
The contribution he makes in his book far exceed this major criticism,
however. His source material, research, and appreciation of the derech
of the Gra combine to make this MUST reading.
I note that ArtScroll has recently published an adaptation of this work
by Yonasan Ronseblum, entitled "The Vilna Gaon" [wouldn't you guess?!]
Entirely out of character, however, Artscroll has remedied the 
deficiency and ADDED a chapter on the machlokes.
When I contacted Artscroll recently and asked who authored this 
new chapter, they replied that Rosenblum wrote it based on numerous
interviews with Rabbi Landau.
I took the time to read ArtScroll's version, and was very pleasantly
surprised with how they presented the often complex material of the
---By the way, regarding the "yitgaDEL vyitkaDESH" pronunciation which
David Curwin refers to, it is interesting that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l
who followed the GRA in many of his minhagim, pronounced these words
"yitgaDAL vyitkaDASH." I often would daven Minchah in Mesivtha Tifereth
Jerusalem, and I witnessed this myself when Reb Moshe would daven when
he had yahrzeit.
Marc Aronson 


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 10:54:06 -0400
Subject: Minhag HaGra

> From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
> b) One minhag of the Gra that is often followed is to say "yitgadel
> v'yitkadesh" in kaddish instead of "yitgadal v'yitkadash". This is
> mentioned in Ma'aseh HaRav. But also mentioned there is the practice not
> to say "v'yithalal". This custom I have never seen practiced. Does
> anyone know why?

At the Maimonides school in Boston the Rav instituted this practice and
it is still followed.

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:25 IST
Subject: Motzei Shabbat of Tisha B'Av

Do not forget that the Havdalla is only on a candle on Saturday night
and on the Sunday night, the wine.
Yisrael Medad


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 02:55:06 -0400
Subject: Rabbi Hirsh of Netura Karta

>Uri Meth
>from todays Philadelphia Enquireer.  There was an article concerning
>Arafat's arrival in Gaza/Jerico.  The picture associated with the
>article (to catch one's eye) were some members of Neturei Karta meeting
>with Arafat, to allegedly give their support to him that he has a right
>to all of Israel and the Jews don't.  No where in the article was this
>episode mentioned or expounded on, just in the caption to the picture.

The caption was accurate.  They could have shown them hugging and
kissing.  The rabbi in question, Rabbi Hirsh of Netura Karta, does
believe that Jews have NO rights in Eretz Yisroel, until the coming of
moshiach.  He has taken a position in the Palestinian Autonomous
Leadership as "Minister of Jewish Affairs".  All was explained in an
interview given to after the meeting.

Rabbi Hirsh, is a well known personality in Israel, he is also known as
the "foreign minister" of the Netura Karta, and is well versed in


[Similar reply from Gedalyah Berger <gberger@...>. Mod]


From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 23:32:13 
Subject: Slaugterhouses

In MJ14 no 9 Rabbi Adlerstein says that the non Glatt meat plants are
located in "rural Midwest cowboy locations in Nebraska and Iowa" and the
glatt places were near Jewish urban areas.  This is factually incorrect.
The vast majority of Glatt meat available in Western US comes from the
Rubashkin packing company under the KAJ, Kehilla, or Lubavitch
supervision.  Rubashkin is located in rural Iowa.  ( I never though of
Iowa as a cowboy state, there are probably more cowboys in the LA

I also have a problem with the statement "Which kind of schochet came
here?  Often, the guy desperate enough to put up with it for a while in
order to make a few bucks."  It would be more appropriate to say " a
person who is willing to make self sacrifices to ensure the availability
of reliable kosher meat for the Jewish people."

Hoping to see everyone at the Tisha B'Av celebration at the Beis
Hamikdash in Yerushalyim.



From: Ezra L Tepper <RRTEPPER@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 10:54:04 +0300
Subject: Tisha B'av on Saturday Night

Ari Shapiro points out that while the Remah says to bring one's
nonleather shoes to the synagogue on Friday and put them on after
_Borechu_ on Saturday night, Shlomo Zalman Auerbach suggests to go home
after minchah on Shabbos, wait until Shabbos is over, say _baruch
hamovdil_, put on one's sneakers, and go to shul for _ma'ariv_.

He then asks, why if this is such a good idea, why didn't the Remah say it.

IMHO, we are dealing with a generation gap. In the time of the Remah
(and I heard this from my grandmother o.h.), synagogues were often built
outside town and people didn't walk around there after dark due to
obvious dangers of Jew-haters. Since Jew's prayed there on motzo'ei
Shabbos, I imagine that they arrived during the day for minchah and
walked home in a group after services. It would have been too
complicated to arrange for the safe going after minchah and returning at

We run into the same problem here in Eretz Yisroel going to synagogues
in the old city of Hebron. That is why on Shabbos you had an armed
soldier standing every fifty meters when walking from the Jewish suburb
of Kiryat Arbah to the Cave of the Patriarchs for prayers. (The Cave has
been closed to prayers for quite a while now, so the past tense).

Ezra L. Tepper <rrtepper@...>


From: <frimer@...> (Aryeh A. Frimer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:48:36 -0400
Subject: Women and Covenant

	Alan Cooper asks how woman enter the Covenant of Abraham if there
is no Circumcision. The Talmud deals with this in several places and
indicates that "nashi ke-man de-mehili damya" (women are considered
circumcized from birth).  This has ramifications regarding eating from
the Paschal Lamb (Kol arel lo Yochal bo - where the uncircumcized are
forbidden to therefrom, even if his exemption is halachically
sanctioned) and elsewhere. Hence, A female convert requires only mikvah
because she is halachically considered circumcized.
		Tsom Kal       Aryeh 


From: Avi Witkin <msavi@...>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:25:41 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Work Ethics Question

   A friend called me the other day with a little problem. It is not 
important what the problem specifically. But what it comes down to is if 
your boss tells you it is ok to do something but you know that the 
company policy is different, are you allowed to listen to your boss? Any 
comments would be appreciated.


End of Volume 14 Issue 20