Volume 14 Number 21
                       Produced: Thu Jul 14 22:39:12 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chumrot vs. Torah
         [Jonathan Katz]
High School Tuitions (2)
         [Robert Rubinoff, Warren Burstein]
         [Manny Lehman]
Restaurants open on Shabbat
         [Jules Reichel]
What year is it? etc.
         [Howard Berlin]


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 13:32:44 EDT
Subject: Chumrot vs. Torah

Well, I really think that my argument with Fred Dweck basically comes down
to semantics...I'll try to show why.

>I would find it very hard to ascribe ot the halacha of kitnyot on Pesach
>the word seyag...

Well, I don't know that much about the history of the prohibition on
kitniyot, but the way I've always heard it is that when kitniyot grains
were first used, there came a point when a posek was asked whether or not
kitniyot flour was allowed on Pesach. He responded that he wasn't sure.
Since the laws governing hametz on Pesach are so strict, we say that since
we are unsure we don't eat kitniyot. While this may not fall technically
into the definition of a siyag (a prohibition enacted to prevent someone
from doing something which is definitely wrong) it is pretty close (a
prohibition enacted because we are unsure if the very act itself is
right or wrong). However, I do not think that it is plausible to argue that
this is an entirely new law!

> To those who follow the Beit Yosef glatt *is* the halacha and neither
> a chumra or a seyag.

The whole point of this discussion was to see whether people were
"adding" laws to the Torah. Now, if people think that the halacha of
s'chita (from the Torah) included glatt, then they are NOT adding
anything to the Torah, they are merely defining their terms differently.
For a better example: if someone said "I'm following a rule that I'm no
longer allowed to jump up and down" - that would be a new law. However,
if someone said "the way I view kashrus is that chicken and milk should
be prohibited in addition to beef and milk" - that is NOT a new law, but
merely an interpretationof an existing law. (don't pick on me for my
poor choice of examples, please)

> [Purim, etc.] were *not* laws added to the Torah...

Well, then, what would *you* call them? Certainly, no one presents them
as laws m'deoreita (is this what you mean?) However, they are also not
taken as guidelines for a "day of commemoration" either - they have the
force of Rabbinic halacha! How can you complain when someone decides to
be a little strict with regard to their meat (glatt) yet find no fault
in the fact that there are strict and absolute laws regarding Purim and

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive Room 251B
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: <Robert_Rubinoff@...> (Robert Rubinoff)
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:42:37 -0400
Subject: Re: High School Tuitions

> From: <segs@...> (Susan Slusky)
> Gershon Schlussel <76220.3107@...> writes:
> >I think that most yeshivos (elem. & high schools) set tuition charges
> >somewhere between $4,000 and $8,000 per child. 
> Would that it were so! Having recently received tuition bills from
> the two NY/NJ yeshiva high schools my children attend I can dolefully tell
> you that their tuitions are both around the breathtaking $9400 mark.
> (not including the bus)
> >It is no wonder that a
> >large percentage of the parent body of most yeshivos cannot afford to pay
> >full tuition charges. It is for this reason that many parents apply for
> >tuition assistance from their children's yeshivos.

It's much worse than that.  The cost of day schools is a very serious
problem.  We have some friends who are considering whether to have a
third child, and a serious factor is the cost of day school tuition.
They pretty much feel like they have to choose between having a third
kid and sending their kids to day school.  And frankly I understand how
they feel; the cost of day school makes me feel nervous about the
consequences of having more kids.  All of the other expenses associated
with raising kids (e.g. food, clothing, housing, toys, etc.) I feel
pretty comfortable about, but I don't know how we're going to come up
with ~$10,000/year/kid (including summer camp fees) on top of everything

It seems to me that there's something seriously wrong when serious,
committed Jews are being forced by the cost of a decent Jewish education
to limit the number of children they have.  And that's what the current
situation is leading to.

I don't know what the solution is; while $9400 might be high, certainly
something on the order of $5000 or so doesn't seem out of line if the
schools are going to be able to attract good teachers.  Community (e.g.
Federation) support might help, but there are lots of other needs that
this money must address, and the potential for conflict between
different schools and groups over the allocation of money is great.  But
I do think that there's a serious problem here.


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:15:43 GMT
Subject: Re: High School Tuitions

Susan Slusky writes of a $9400 tuition bill.  I may not recall
accurately, but I was under the impression that my parents paid around
$1000 when I was in Yeshiva High School of Queens between 73 and 76.
Does this recollection seem correct?

Where's the money going?  There hasn't been that much inflation.  I
have not heard that yeshiva high school teachers have improved that
much, either.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon."
/ nysernet.org                       Stuart Schoffman


From: <mml@...> (Manny Lehman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 11:24:29 +0000
Subject: Kisharon

This message is not a discussion point but a call for help for a most
worthy cause.

Kisharon is an orthodox organisation that is having to continue to expand
in response to a need that appears to be on the increase or, perhaps more
correctly, that is emerging as "sweep under the rug" inhibitions are being
ovedrcome with acceptance of the fact that all children and young adults
are entitled to receive to the maximum whatever chinuch they are able to
absorb. The organisation now includes a school (3 - 16 year olds) and two
"centers for young adults (16 upwards) with moderate or severe learning
difficulties (mentally handicapped).The effort is directed to providing
children from orthodox Jewish backgrounds the surroundings and the
educational framework and direction to match their homes. Such a match is
essential if a handicapped child is to feel at home both at home and in
school, is to gain its self respect and courage to try and succeed. is to
feel equal in some sense to its brothers and sisters and co scholars. It
was founded by my wife sh't some 18 years ago and has been headed by her
ever since. The latest development is the planned opening - when premises
have been acquired, of a home for, in the first place, respite care which
may eventually became a home for those who need it.

The expansion, both in numbers and in facilities offered, means that
teachers and assisstents are required both for work with the "early years"
and with the "young adults". Good qualifications are required as are
experience, devotion to work, enthusiasm, a kind heart and a work permit if
not British. This can be obtained, with some effort, where it can be shown
that "no person with equivalent qualifications is available locally".  My
wife, Chava, would be interested to hear from anyone suitably qualified who
would be interested in joining the staff for a minimum of one year,
preferably for longer.

Enquiries can be directed to me via email or directly to

Mrs C Lehman
1011 Finchley Road
London NW11 2HS
tel. +44 (081) 455 7483, fax. +44 (081) 731 7005


Prof. M M (Manny) Lehman, Department of Computing
Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine
180 Queen's Gate, London SW7 2BZ, UK.
phone: +44 (0)71 594 8214,  fax +44 (0)71 594 8215
Central +44 (0)71 589 5111, fax +44 (0)71 581 8024
email: <mml@...>


From: <JPREICHEL@...> (Jules Reichel)
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:05:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Restaurants open on Shabbat

I've often mused that Kosher restaurants would be as prevalent as Chinese
and Italian restaurants in our society except for the strange principle
of owner credibility. There are two troubles with the credibility argument:
1. Other ways exist to guarantee credibility, and 2.It's built on the 
assumption that one area of violation destroys a person's credibility. A 
clearly dubious assumption. Restaurant people are characterized by one        
behavior more than all others: it's not piety, it's entrepreneurial ability.
If you don't have the trait, your out of business. Two problems exist: 1. Our
cuisine is immature and couldn't compete in the marketplace with others. and
2. Availability is poor and price is high. You may say, "he's missed the 
point. It's not a beauty contest, it's a question of halacha". But is it, or 
have we gone too far? Why for example are so many of our foods for casual
celebration, such as lox, smoked fish, hard cheeses, or (for other occasions)
deli, known to us also as high cholesterol, high salt, high fat, foods whose
intake should be strictly limited? Is that what HaShem wants of us, to hurt
our health? My conjecture is that the real reason has little to do with  
halacha. It's that we're caught in a trap and we don't know a way out. Here's
how it goes: There cannot be schools for great Kosher cuisine which can train
experts because there aren't enough restaurants. There aren't enough 
restaurants because entrepreneurs need a total community market to make money.
We can't have a community market because then the owners would destroy their
credibility. Can someone tell me why this social-economic cycle is good? 


From: Howard Berlin <berlin@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 18:57:51 -0400
Subject: What year is it? etc.

I have been interested in the original (V13n60) and subsequent postings 
concerning "What Year Is It?" I had done my own calculations, based on 
the verses in my Chumash, and come up with a number of the same results
--  well almost. 

I am trying to make up a time line chronology; a little more detailed 
than the one that appears in my "Stone Edition" of the ArtScroll Chumash 
(p. 53).

For those events before the Exodus, I agree on the dates of several of 
the notable events as were given in the V13n60 posting:

Noah born:		1056 years after creation
The Flood:		1656 years	"

In my calculations, I nevertheless have several questions for which I 
have no answers.

Known Facts (?)
1. Bereishis 5:32 says that "When Noah was 500 years old, Noah begat Shem,
	Ham, and Japheth."

	Since Noah was born 1056 years after creation, were Shem, & Japheth
	all born 1556 years after creation (were they all born in the same

2. Bereishis 11:10 says that "....that Shem was 100 years old when he begat
	Arpachshad, two years after the flood. And Shem lived 500 hundred
	years after begetting Arpachshad....."

	Since the flood was 1656 years after creation, therefore, according
	to the above, Arpachshad was born 1658 years after creation and Shem
	was 100 years old in 1658 and therefore died 2058 years after
	creation. However, Shem was 600 years old when he died and 2058 - 600
	= 1558, which conflicts with Bereishis 5:32 which according to my
	humble calculations gives the birth of Shem 2 years earlier  when 
	Noach was 500 years old (1556 years after creation). My ArtScroll
	Chumash on p. 53 gives the birth of Shem as 1558.  Did I make a
	simple mistake?

3. The time line in the Artscroll Chumash gives the year of the
 	"Dispersion" (i.e., Tower of Babel, which I assume also to be
	the same as the .... ) as 1996 years after creation.  

	How was the year 1996 arrived at? I see no chronology reference in

Final question (for now) -- Is the Seder Olam available in English? I
appologize that my knowledge of Hebrew is not at the fluent stage
(German, Russian, and Hungarian yes, but alas, I do not command an
extensive working knowlege of Hebrew). I understand that the Seder Olam
("World order") gives a chronology of events since creation. Is it a
general term or does it refer to a once published scholarly work or
commentary, etc., by an ancient sopher?

Would appreciate any replies to the above. I'm sure that further 
questions will develop as I dig deeper into additional details.

Todah rabbah.
<berlin@...>      |  	What did Delaware boys? 
Howard M. Berlin, W3HB    |	She wore a brand New Jersey!  8-)
Wilmington, Delaware      |    


End of Volume 14 Issue 21