Volume 14 Number 38
                       Produced: Thu Jul 21  0:14:28 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Danny Skaist]
Big problem with Parshat Eikev
         [Jay Bailey]
Eating dairy after meat
         [Binyomin Segal]
Eved Cnaani as solution to adoption problem
         [Aaron Lerner]
G'neivas Da'as (deception)
         [Sam Juni]
General Kashrus info
         [Abe Perlman]
judios que no lo saben
         [Carlos Alberto Vidal Rios]
Overseas MSW Programs? (fwd)
         [Susan Sterngold]


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:28:44 -0400
Subject: Anti-Semitism

>Binyomin Segal
>Anti-semitism is directly related to the goys (unconscious) understanding
>that we are the mamleches cohanim (nation of priests) We are the religious
>leaders for the world, and they respond to that in their gut. That is why
>the Goldstein thing (or for that matter any Jewish scandal) is such a big
>deal to the non-jews ("How could _Jews_ act that way?!") and Arab terrorism
>(or gang crime or...) is _relatively_ uncommented upon ("What do you
>As I understand it (possibly only some) anti-semitism is a direct result of
>our failure as an example - they resent not having the leadership we should
>be giving them. It seems to me that this is _exactly_ what a chillul Hashem

Your understanding in the second paragraph does not follow the ideas in the
first paragraph.

In a symposium on Anti-Semitism held in Jerusalem a few years back, an
idea was submitted that Anti-Semitism is caused by the Jews being the
"conscience" of the world. Your first paragraph is accepted as fact, and
they always compare themselves to "The Jews".

The understanding should be that they resent HAVING the leadership we
should be giving them. They are relieved when Jews show them that they
(the non-Jews) really aren't that bad. It is the reason that any misstep
by Jews is "shouted from the rooftops" when similar or worse actions by
other Goyim are ignored.  It reaffirms their faith to continue acting as
they will.

It also explains the hatred of the of the secular Jews in Israel for the



From: <bailey@...> (Jay Bailey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:29:32 -0400
Subject: Big problem with Parshat Eikev

In a nutshell, I'm giving a shiur in 2 weeks and I can't seem to get a
satisfactory explanation of what _looks_ like a mistake (chas v'shalom)
in Deut. 10:6, where Moses interrupts his retelling of the Luchot story
with a mention of Aaron's death at Mosera after Bnei Yisrael had passed
thru Bnei Yaakan.

a) Aarom died nowhere near there, at Hor Hahar somewhere under the 
Deas Sea.
b) They went from _Bnei Yaakan_  to Moseroth, not vice-versa.
c) why is this introduced at all????

Before you spend too long working on it, check Ramban (the English in
the blue book is a little easier than the Hebrew because it footnotes
the locations of p'sukim as it goes along) who rejects the explanations
of Rashi and Ibn Ezra. Unfortunately, Ramban's suggestion is hard to
swallow and not really supported topographically (I hope that whets your

I'd love some responses ASAP - I've got 12 days and counting!

Jay Bailey


From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 19:02:09 -0400
Subject: RE:Eating dairy after meat

>From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>

>1) According to the Torah, it seems that the only problem is eating meat
>and milk TOGETHER. To the best of my knowledge, waiting after eating meat
>is not m'deoreita.

>2) That being the case, when was it instituted to wait after eating meat?

>3) The most vexing question, to me, concerns the various customs people hold
>as far as the time between eating goes. What is the basis for the different
>times? (i.e. the one I've heard is that it's the approximate time it takes
>for the stomach to digest meat). What are the sources for 3 hours vs.
>6 hours vs. 72 minutes and everything else??

Basically, (and this is from memory, so there might be a few minor errors
here) - you are essentialy correct in #1. From Torah law there are three
1.Cooking meat & milk together
2.Eating meat & milk that were cooked together
3.Deriving benefit from meat & milk that were cooked together.

Everything after this is rabbinic law, or custom. (I should add that the
Rabbis were explicit that there were many additions to the laws of meat &
milk. They felt that since both meat & milk were around in the house, that
without added strictures we would be very open to Torah mistakes in this
area) The institution of waiting after meat before milk was in practice
during the time of the gemara. The gemara mentions that certain people
waited as long as 24 hours after meat for milk. The gemara's rule is that
one must wait "from one meal to another".

This term "from one meal to another" is understood by the Rishonim in two
different ways:
1. they must be eaten in seperate meals ie you must bench after completeing
meat, and then you may eat a seperate meal of milk.
2. you must wait the time that was generally waited between the two daily
meals. ie 6 hours.

Added to understanding number one is that there should be a minimal wait,
and so 1 hour.

As I recall, the Bais Yosef paskens like #2 (and therefore sfardim are
bound to wait 6 hours) however the Rama paskens like #1 (and therefore some
Ashkenazim wait as little as 1 hour) However the Rama adds that waiting 6
hours is an appropriate chumra for some people (i forget the term he uses).
It seems that over the years various communities accepted that chumra so
that now many of us are bound by our custom to wait 6 hours.

The 3 hour custom is one that is not mentioned in the majority of sources -
I seem to recall having seen an authoratative explanation, but...



From: Aaron Lerner <100274.3232@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:29:21 -0400
Subject: Eved Cnaani as solution to adoption problem

In Israel today one of the "hot" issues is finding a solution for the
status of Gentile children adopted overseas by nonreligious Israelis.

As far as I can recall, someone who has an "eved Cnaani" is obligated to
circumcise him and, upon his release into freedom, the slave
automatically becomes a Jew.  Of course, all of the above is independent
of the degree of religiosity of the Jewish slave owner.

If this is indeed the case, would it be possible for adopted children to
be treated temporarily as "eved cnaani", circumsized, and then released
to freedom?

I know that the above is extremely far fetched, but I would be most
interested in hearing back about the technical viability of such a

Dr. Aaron Lerner  (Raanana)
POB 982 Kfar Sava, Israel
tel 972-9-425786/fax 972-9-911645


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:29:51 -0400
Subject: G'neivas Da'as (deception)

Some time ago, Mark Steiner inquired re my assertion that G'neivas Da'as
hinges on the obtaining a favor from another via deception, rather than
banning mere misrepresentation.  He mentions Chulin 93b.

If I may direct Mark to the Rashi commentary on 94a, Rashi explaines the
problem as due to the fact that the receipient will then be beholden to
the deceiver.  One can take that lterally as implying that the process
becomes problematical because of the favor which will then be returned.

If I remember correctly, the Enyclopedia Talmudit has a treatment on the
topic which probably substantiates my hypothesis.

To those posters who are concerned re representing openly that lying may
not be prohibited under Jewish law, let's not panic.  If we look at
lying in isolation from other issues (e.g., swindling, conniving, etc.),
one is hard pressed to view it as amoral/ethical issue at all. A story
from Chelm to illustrate my point:

      Hearing that Warsaw businessmen were shrewd, the Chelm sexton
      was sent to investigate.  He returned with a gleeful report that
      all of Warsaw's inhabitants were quite naive. "Twice," he asserted,
     "I managed to fool them all, and they never suspected it for a moment."

     Berel, the sexton, continued. "When I first arrived in town, many
     Jews came to greet me, asking who I was.  This is where I first got them:
     I told them my name was Shmerl, and they didn't even blink.  Some of
     them noticed that I was carrying a book in my vest pocket, and inquired
     about it. Here, again, I showed them. Although it was a Siddur, I
     assured one and all that it was a T'hillim.

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 14:29:29 EDT
Subject: General Kashrus info

   Josh Rapps wrote on July 11:

>The following number may be useful in finding out info on who provides the
>hashgacha behind 'k' symbols on products. You can call a govt. kashrus
>organization that has info on these products at 1-718-722-2852.  I say that
>it may be useful because it implies that you are familiar with the various
>hashgacha services and their levels of reliability.

   Does this number have a mailing address behind it?

Mordechai Perlman


From: Carlos Alberto Vidal Rios <870810@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 17:35:55 GMT -500
Subject: judios que no lo saben

    Please i dont speak english very good, i speak spanish. I believe 
that i am jewish, how know this, before now know that my name not is 
that this Carlos Alberto VIDAL RIOS, 
    My true name is Carlos Alberto BERAU ?????????????  
    I dont know my ancients, but i think that are jewish by much acts 
in my family.
    Please answerme now

[I don't know that we have any other list members in Peru, but maybe
some of the Lubavitch members have contacts there. I'm sure we do have
some members who are fluent in Spanish, could one of you contact Carlos
by email and find out some more info. It sounds to me like a spark in a
Yiddishe soul may be trying to emerge. Mod.]


From: Susan Sterngold <ss117@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Overseas MSW Programs? (fwd)

hi-thought maybe someone on jewish list might know...

there are grad social work programs in Israel at Hebrew Univ in
Jerusalem, Bar Ilan in Tel Aviv, Univerity of Tel Aviv, Univ. of the
Negev and there may still be others

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994, Mark Zilberman wrote:

> I am interested in knowing of MSW programs overseas. I am particularly
> interest ed in those that might be in Israel. Finally, what is the
> thinking as to value of such training. Needless to say there are a
> wide range of disciplines that


End of Volume 14 Issue 38