Volume 14 Number 39
                       Produced: Fri Jul 22 12:28:27 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bava Metzia 21b/24a
         [Jeff Mandin]
Eating Dairy after Meat (v14n38)
         [Mina Rush]
Feminine Megillot
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Kosher Plastics
         [Ben Berliant]
New Moon and Friendship
OZ - New Halachic Publication
         [Yisrael Medad]
R.Ts.`H (the 6th commandment)
         [Sean Engelson]
rashi print=ramo?
         [Yael Penkower]
Rav Y.P. Parla
         [David Curwin]
The Feminine Aspect of the Megilot
         [Jay Bailey]
Waiting between Meat and Milk
         [Ira Rosen]
Women not saying Kiddush Levana [New Moon Blessing]
         [Aleeza Esther Berger]


From: Jeff Mandin <jeff@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:57:31 -0400
Subject: Bava Metzia 21b/24a

Might someone out there be able to help me with the following?

On Bava Metzia 21b, the gemara quotes a baraita about finding money in a
Beit Kneset or Beit Midrash, and seems to understand it as referring to
"loose" coins which have no "siman"(so it seems from Rashi).  On 24a
however, the gemara considers this reading, rejects it, and concludes
that the Baraita speaks of bound coins.  That is to say: reading the
gemara simply, the two sugyas apparently understand the case of the
baraita to be different.

Tosefot's solution is to read the gemara on 21b according to the 
conclusion on 24a.  Would anyone know if:

	a) any acharon addresses whether Rashi understood that the
	different sugyas just read the baraitha differently

	b) any rishon resolves the problem differently than Tosefot.


- Jeff


From: <DrJason@...> (Mina Rush)
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 00:48:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Eating Dairy after Meat (v14n38)

Not long ago I was privileged to attend an in depth shiur on this topic.
We discussed all the issues mentioned by Binyomin Segal.  However, we
were able to come up with a possible insight on the observance of the
"three hour wait" since as mentioned, there does not seem to be any
sources for that custom.
 In the time of the Gemara when the six hour mandatory waiting time was
established, it was customary for people to eat only two meals a day.
Each meal separated by a time span of 6 hours.  Since the prohibition
was against eating milk and meat at the same meal, the minhag developed
around the time between the meals (not an arbitrary period, but a
practical one) Now it is customary to eat three meals a day.  Each meal
is separated by a time span of approximately three hours, hence the
custom of waiting only three hours between meat and dairy.  Like I said,
there are no sources we found to corroborate this, it just came out of
brainstorming.  It leads one to wonder what will happen if we ever
decide to follow the nutritionists advice and develop the custom of five
smaller meals during the day instead of three large ones!
  B'Shalom - Mina Rush (Dr Jason)


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:33:10 -0400
Subject: Feminine Megillot

Regarding Alan Cooper's:

:It is also worth noting that God is a significant (explicit) presence in
:only one of the megillot, Eikha, and in that book God's behavior towards
:Israel is a source of trauma and theological crisis. 

Yes, and even in Eicha the author (Yirmiyahu) seems to be stressing the
might of the Jewish people once again -- as he mourns primarily the loss
of Jerusalem, Jewish rule over Judea, and the destruction of the people.
The references to the Beit Hamikdash -- God's temple -- are ALL made as
side points -- almost ignroing that tragedy altogether.

The obvious references to G-d -- are almost all statements that
essentially say: 'We sinned and that is why this PHYSICAL destruction of
our people, our city, and our kingdom occurred.' -- But it is still the
physical destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and their inhabitants and the
loss of sovereignity that Yirmiyahu mourns...

This is very similar to the other four Megillot -- Ruth - Story of Source
of David (Like a 'Legend of the ultimate monarch' -- L'havdil U'lhashvot) 
Esther - Physical Survival of Jewish People, etc. 

          |  Joseph (Yosi) Steinberg       |              <steinber@...>
 Shalom   |  972 Farragut Drive            |  <jstein@...>
U'Vracha! |  Teaneck, NJ 07666-6614        |               <jsteinb@...>
          |  United States of America      |       Tel: +1-201-833-YOSI(9674)


From: Ben Berliant <C14BZB@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 10:35:09 -0400
Subject: Kosher Plastics

Leon Dworsky <ljd@...> writes:

>reminded me of an item I saw recently about resin based packaging
>materials. It seems that Rabbi Jonah Gewirtz of Silver Spring, MD, whose
>specialty is packaging materials, became aware that these products were
>made using tallow-derived additives during manufacture.  These
>non-kosher additives migrate to the surface of plastic packaging
>materials and come in direct contact with packaged foods.
>R' Gewirtz worked with a major manufacturer of the resins, Solvay
>Polymers, and they found new additives that are kosher and parave. As a
>result, all of their production is now certified by R' Gewirtz and R'
>Moshe Heinemann of the Star-K. Packaging products made from these resins
>will bear a ``Certified Plastic'' mark. 

	With all due respect to Rav Heineman and Rabbi Gewirtz, I
wouldn't throw out my Plastic wrap and containers just yet.

	Some years ago, Rabbi Gewirtz and Rav Heineman combined to
create the concept of "Certified Steel" - to certify that steel
containers (primarily large drums) used in transporting food were free
from whale oil (or other treif oils) used in the manufacturing process.
Despite Rav Heineman's backing, the necessity for certified steel was
not accepted by other Kashrut certifying organizations, and I remember
reading an impassioned rebuttal of its necessity in the "Jewish
Homemaker" magazine from the head of the OK (I believe it was still R.
B. Levy).

	So, remember Avi's prime directive CYLOR (or CYLKSO - Consult
your local Kashrut Supervising Organization).

					BenZion Berliant


From: <ask@...> (a.s.kamlet)
Date: 22 Jul 1994   0:30 EDT
Subject: Re:  New Moon and Friendship

katz%<milcse@...> (Ron Katz) writes:
>What I heard is that since in Kiddush Levanah there are a number of
>passages/verses dealing with G-d taking revenge on our enemies, we say
>Shalom Aleichem to each other to emphasize they the verses we read are
>not talking about each other, but rather our enemies.

And why do we respond Aleichem Shalom?

Art Kamlet   AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus   <ask@...>


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 02:00:19 -0400
Subject: OZ - New Halachic Publication

A new Halachic Publication has appeared called OZ.  It is published by
the Yeshivat Sha'alavim and deals with issues of the military, security
and defense.  The first collection consists of 363 pages (in book form)
with 26 articles in areas of Military Life, Shabbat & Holiday,
Individual & General Matters, Operational Activity & War, Security
Outlook, Ethics & Values.  Address: Yeshivat Sha'alavim, D.N. Shimshon
99784 Phone: 08-276631.

Yisrael Medad


From: Sean Engelson <engelson@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 09:17:04 -0400
Subject: R.Ts.`H (the 6th commandment)

Regarding the proper translation of the sixth commandment, I think that
the best translation for the shoresh (word root) R.Ts.`H (as in
"rotsea`h") would be "to kill a human being".  This is contrasted with
H.R.G ("laharog") which more generally means to kill.  First, it seems
that, in the Torah at least, the latter is used as a default, with the
first used either when the specificity is needed (as in the commandment)
or for stylistic reasons ("yirtsa`h et harotsea`h").  According to this,
the commandment prohibits killing people period.  However, in those
cases where we have a separate mandate to kill someone (eg, beth din, or
rodeph) we can apply the principle of `aseh do`heh lo' ta`aseh (a
positive commandment pushes aside a prohibition) to show that the 6th
commandment doesn't apply.  Kakh nir'eh li.



From: <sl14402@...> (Yael Penkower)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: rashi print=ramo?

I have a question and two statements

1) If there is "Rashi print" in the Shulkhan Aruch does that necessarily
mean that it is the Ramo? What if it is in parenthesis? What if it does not
say "hago?" I have heard that it is not. Are there manuscripts that show
this? Are there articles written on this?

2) Regarding the shalom aleichem in Kiddush Levana, I believe that most of
the commentaries say that these statements are in responce to the verse in
which we state that 'just as I can't touch the moon My enemies should not
touch me' and then we say - you are not my enemy.

3) Regarding cheating and lying Thank you Ezra Rosenfeld for a voice of
reason!!! and everyone should see the Ramban on the verse in Devarim
"ve'aseeta ha'yashar ve'hatov" (and you should do what is streight and
good) Deut. 6:18. Basic morality is a given in the spirit of the Torah
even before you look for the letter of the law!!!  
YoF Teachers (<sl14402@...>)


From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 18:45:42 -0400
Subject: Rav Y.P. Parla

Does anyone have any biographical innformation on Rav Y.P. Parla, who
wrote commentaries on writings of many Rishonim and Achronim? His most
famous work, I think, is his great commentary on Rav Sa'adia Gaon's
Sefer HaMitzvot.

I have only heard one story, that he lived in a house attached to the
shul, so that he only opened his window of his study to hear kedusha and
kriat ha-tora, not to interrupt his studies.

Anyone know anything else?


From: <bailey@...> (Jay Bailey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:29:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The Feminine Aspect of the Megilot

> From: <6524dcurw@...> (David Curwin)

David -- in response to your question: 
> Here is a question that has bothered me for a while:
> Four of the Megilot have very feminine aspects. Ruth and Esther both have
> female heroes. And both Shir HaShirim and Eicha use the image of a woman
> as a symbol of the Jewish people (Kuzari, Kol Dodi Dofek). As a matter
> of fact, that is the only thing I can see in common in those four books.
> But where does Kohelet fit in? What does it have in common with the
> other megilot, in terms of the feminine aspect, or otherwise?

I actually spent some time last year thinking about this same issue, and
I came up with this: It's a coincidence, but it's not. Allow me to
elaborate. Women represented (this issue not intended to spark protest)
both sexuality and motherhood, making them the ideal model for Shir
Hashirim and Eicha respectively. It's somehow easier to relate to a
sensual woman or a mourning mother than a lustful man or depressed
father. I'm not endorsing that, just observing. As to the other 2, they
are stories, plain and simple. They're about women, true enough, but if
that's how we believe it happened, there's not much to question. Now
Kohelet is about a thinker - in this case a man regarded as the wisest
man in history - who questions our values, priorities, etc. Sorry that I
can't provide you with a brilliant chidush - it's just the makeup of
each, based on its content. Tell me what you think. I'd love to gain
some insights on the topic.


From: Ira Rosen <irosen@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Waiting between Meat and Milk

Regarding the discussion of waiting time between meat and milk:
	When I was younger, i used to wait 3 hours for poultry and 5 ('into
the sixth hour') for red meat. The reasoning, apparentl (in my own mind) was
that red meat was considered meat d'oraita (from the written torah) while
poultry was added to the category meat by the rabbanim so no one would
consider that red meat (mammal flesh) is like poultry (bird  flesh - until
the change it was considered pareve - as fish still is) and cook/eat it with
milk. I have heard that this tradition may be a real opinion (albeit a
minority opinion), but i would be interested in any information about this.
(As my family has no real traditions, I would be interested in knowing if the
differential waiting time is an acceptable minhag, or simply the invention of
an inexperienced day school student - due to this lack of knowledge about the
source of this 'minhag' i have since switched to waiting the same amount of
time for all meat)
			-Ira Rosen


From: Aleeza Esther Berger <aeb21@...>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Women not saying Kiddush Levana [New Moon Blessing]

There is debate as to whether kiddush levanah is a time-bound
commandment, from which women would be exempt (but still permitted), or
not time-bound, in which case women are obligated to say it.

In any event, the most common reason offered to explain the custom of
some women not to say it is that Eve caused the moon to be less than
perfect, through her sin, so women are embarrassed to say kiddush

I recall saying kiddush levanah in camp (religious Zionist).  Thus the
custom of women not to say it is apparently not everywhere
institutionalized.  (When I say it now I feel it's less-than-perfect in
any case, since I always get the worst view of the moon in my attempt to
stand apart from the group of men outside of shul.)  (:-(

aliza berger


End of Volume 14 Issue 39