Volume 14 Number 54
                       Produced: Wed Jul 27 17:32:23 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

AOJS convention
         [Ezra Rosenfeld]
Baruch Hashem l'Olam vs. V'shamru (3)
         [Chaim Schild, Abe Perlman, Neil Parks]
Chassidim and Israel
         [Isaac Balbin]
Cheating in Grade-quota Courses
         [Jules Reichel]
Free Will and the Akeida Test in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #47
         [Sam Saal]
Gedolim Uketanim
         [Abe Perlman]
Hidden Prophecies of the verses
         [Abe Perlman]
Learning Brisk Method: Academic vs. Apprenticeship
         [Sam Juni]
Waiting Between Meat and Milk
         [Brigitte Saffran]
Yeshiva Recommendations
         [Andy Goldfinger]
Yeshiva University
         [Michael Broyde]


From: Ezra Rosenfeld <zomet@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 09:20:11 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: AOJS convention

I would be grateful if anyone could send me details of the upcoming AOJS 
convention (?) at the Homowack Hotel. 

Ezra Rosenfeld


From: SCHILD%<GAIA@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 09:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Baruch Hashem l'Olam vs. V'shamru

The "inside" story as to why the First Lubavitcher Rebbe put in V'shamru
has something (I am not sure of all the details) to do with placating
his father-in-law . It has remained in the siddur just like other things
in which the actual motivating event passsed with a note on the bottom
that it is not said according to minhag Chabad...........


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 13:02:16 EDT
Subject: Baruch Hashem l'Olam vs. V'shamru

According to Minhag Ashkenaz the brocho Baruch Hashem L'Olam is in fact
a hefsek and so is Kaddsh before Shemone Esrei as can be found in the
Rosh on Maseches Brochos Perek 1, Siman 1.  This is why when something
extra is added to the tefila of the day in Shacharis we usually just
bang on the table to remind everybody because there we are careful to be
"somech geula l'tfila" (i.e.  not to make a hefsek) but by Ma'ariv we
are not careful and we make an announcement such as Ya'ale V'yavo etc.

According to the Rosh those who are careful not to say BHLO because of a
hefsek lose out anyway because they say Kaddish.

Mordechai Perlman

From: Neil Parks <neil.parks@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 13:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Baruch Hashem l'Olam vs. V'shamru

I've heard (don't recall where) that "Baruch Hashem L'Olam" was
originally the conclusion of the Maariv, which is why it is followed by
Kaddish.  It has 18 verses intended to parallel the 18 benedictions of
the weekday Amidah, and therefore, sted being an "interruption between
ge'ulah and tefillah", is actually the tefillah part.

Philip Birnbaum's "Siddur Am Yisroel" says that BHLO is not recited in

NEIL PARKS   <neil.parks@...>


From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 03:52:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Chassidim and Israel

  | From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
  | The correct way to react to police brutality (whether one is frum or
  | not) is not to "understand" the people who respond to police brutality
   [ ]
  | I notice that all I've said aboive is what's not the correct way.
  | Well the correct way is to use the Israeli courts.

Seeing that this is a halachik forum, I would appreciate sources from 
Warren that substantiate his "correct" way.


From: <JPREICHEL@...> (Jules Reichel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 11:19:53 -0400
Subject: Cheating in Grade-quota Courses

Sam Juni's conundrum about whether it is sometimes unethical to excell
is more important than the answer of "be honest" would imply. Does
honesty demand that we comply with dishonest rules? There is no inherent
honesty in a grade-quota system. And we need not, therefore, necessarily
comply with its rules. Would it be honest for 5 grad students to show up
in a freshman course and steal all of the A's? Does honesty demand that
we not share homework so that those who didn't understand can keep up?
My view is that a system may only have the appearance of honesty. Being
a cut-throat, or what students call a "throat" is not really honest. And
terms like cheating are quite hard to define. I'm sure that Sam was
teasing by trying to deny all cheating. But the vast majority of what we
might superficially call cheating probably isn't.  Jules


From: Sam Saal <SSAAL@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 16:07:19 -0400
Subject: RE: Free Will and the Akeida Test in mail.jewish Vol. 14 #47


>A fourth possibility is that the test isn't for God's benefit at all,
>but for Avram's, and for his followers.  Until this point, Avram talked
>a great game.  He told everybody about God, and many had witnessed or
>heard of the miracles that happened to him (like his surviving being
>thrown into a furnace.)  He's been telling everybody to give up on their
>old ways of worship, and to follow him and his god.

Given the others saw/heard second hand, wouldn't Brit Milah
(circumcision) have been as good a demo?  All they saw in Akedah was
Avraham taking a trip then coming back. according to the Midrash, even
Sarah didn't know the purpose of the trip, and only found out when an
angel told her, causing her death.

Sam Saal
Vayiphtach HaShem et Peah HaAtone


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 13:13:26 EDT
Subject: Gedolim Uketanim

Regarding yeshivos which appear to cater only to producing the Kli
Kodesh, the Rav, the Rosh Hayeshiva etc. I thought it would be of
interest this story I heard.

A Baal Habos came to visit the yeshiva of Rav Meir Shapiro, Yeshivas
Chachmei Lublin and saw 500 talmidim there learning.  he asked the Rosh
Hayeshiva, "Where are you going to find positions for all of these?
There aren't that many positions for a Rav etc. in all of Poland?  Rav
Shapiro answered," Only one will become a Rav, the other 499 will learn
how to appreciate a Rav."

Mordechai Perlman


From: Abe Perlman <abeperl@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 16:31:28 EDT
Subject: Hidden Prophecies of the verses

  Howard Reich writes:

>An article published in a Satmar magazine about 5 years ago (which R. Irons
>is no longer able to locate), mentioned that each of the 5,845 psukim
>(verses) in the Torah according to the Masoretic text, corresponds to its
>numerical year (e.g, verse one corresponds to year one, etc.).  R. Irons
>tested this theory and found an uncanny correlation between events in Jewish
>history and allusions to those events in the corresponding verses in the

I've heard of this before around the time of Rav Moshe Feinstein's
petira.  If you look up the 5745th posuk of the Torah it is in Parshas
Vayelech, Perek 31, Posuk 24 and it says, " And it came to pass, when
Moshe had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until
they were finished."

Mordechai Perlman 


From: Sam Juni <JUNI@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 13:05:52 -0400
Subject: Learning Brisk Method: Academic vs. Apprenticeship

In his post of 7/24/94, Mordechai Perlman posits that the Brisk analytic
method cannot be mastered from a text, but that it must be learned via

Whenever I come across a discipline which precludes formal instruction,
I become suspicious.  What is the rationale for the exclusion? It
would seem that a text-based analytic method should be eminently
descibable in operational terms.  I find it ironic that this exclusion
is suggested re the Brisk method, in view of R. Chaim Brisker's basic
premise "Oib es felt in hasburuh, felt es in havunuh" (If there is a
deficit in explanation, the deficit is actually in understanding).

     Dr. Sam Juni                  Fax (212) 995-3474
     New York University           Tel (212) 998-5548
     400 East
     New York, N.Y.  10003


From: <richa@...> (Brigitte Saffran)
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 19:56:44 EET
Subject: Waiting Between Meat and Milk

Can anyone find a makor (source) for waiting 4 hours between meat and
milk? It's my family minhag. I know it is rare, so far the only other
people that I've met who wait 4 hours are from Egypt, Vienna, and a
certain part of Russia. I was once told that the da'ah(view/opinion)
does come up in Rabinnic Lit, but I don't know where.  -Brigitte Saffran


From: Andy Goldfinger <andy_goldfinger@...>
Date: 27 Jul 1994 07:40:42 U
Subject: Yeshiva Recommendations

Can anyone recommend yeshivas/schools/programs for the following two

(1)  "Reuven" is about to enter 12th grade at an American yeshiva.  He
is very bright, although sometimes not motivated.  In dress and
practice he is "chereidi," although his reading tastes tend towards
science fiction.  He is very creative and witty, and can write very
well when he wants to.  He wants to learn in Israel for a year
following high school, and then go on to college.  He needs a place
that will treat him as an individual, one which will encourage his
creativity rather than stiffle it.  It should be a serious place, one
which expects its students to work hard, yet one in which the boys have
fun and are given a bit of freedom.  It should be "black hat," yet not
try to discourage boys from going on to college.  Ideally, it would be
a place that encourages some sort of community involvement, such as
"practical chessed," as well as bais medresh learning.  It must be
English speaking.

Does such a place exist in Israel?  Does it exist anywhere else (North
America, Europe, Australia, ??)  Does anything approximate it?  Are
there any other programs (other than standard yeshiva) that will meet
"Reuven's" needs?

(2)  "Shimon" is a very bright 15 year old.  He is about to enter 10th
grade.  He has a learning disability that makes it difficult for him to
write and to form written sentences and spell.   He has worked very
hard to compensate for this disability.  He shows strength in Hebrew
language skills by laining regularly in shul. He has excellent verbal
skills when expressing himself orally, but has problems with written
exams.  Because of his disability, he has been attending a small
special secular high school and getting tutoring in Hebrew and Torah on
the side..  As a result, he has lost his chevra and is sort of alone. 
He is ready to transition to a real yeshiva (i.e. for 11th grade next
year).  He needs a place that will provide some help with his
disablity, and preferably one with a vocational track.  Of course, he
is somewhat behind boys who have been in yeshiva since 9th grade, but
he is very intelligent. He would need appropriate support in catching

Does anyone know of a place (in the U.S. or Canada) that is appropriate
for "Shimon?"

Please reply either via e-mail to <Andy_Goldfinger@...>
or via mail-jewish.  Thanks.


From: Michael Broyde <RELMB@...>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 10:59:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Yeshiva University

Rabbi Adlerstein in his agreement with Arnei Lustiger, proposed a number
of solutions to the needs of children and adults to secular education.
He left out one possible solution:


The torah education that is provided is excellent; the boys who want to,
learn well.  The shuirim are excellent.  The neighborhod is not very
pleasant, however.  Having spent 13 years in that institution (HS,
College, Smecha (yoreh-yoreh) and then yadin yadin smecha) I can tell
you that for those who are committed to striving to receive a strong
secular and a strong torah education, and they are willing to work the
long hours required to do so, Yeshiva University remains a unique

Rabbi Michael Broyde, Assistant Professor, Department of Religion,
Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30329; Tel: 404 727-7546


End of Volume 14 Issue 54