Volume 16 Number 68
                       Produced: Sun Nov 20 14:26:53 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia - Chanuka Party
         [Avi Feldblum]
         [Zvi Weiss]
Army service
         [Josh Backon]
Israeli army
         [Eli Turkel]
Looking for sefer on Jewish Leap year calculations
         [Daniel Farkas]
Modesty Guidelines Question
         [Leah S. Gordon]
On Chanukah gelt on the fifth night
         [David Kaufmann]
Opera & Stern
         [Yisrael Medad]
Rivka's age
         [Josh Backon]
         [Michael Shimshoni]
Yaakov's Deception
         [Jeff Korbman]


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 14:20:27 -0500
Subject: Administrivia - Chanuka Party

Hello All,

This is the "official" invitation to all of you to come together for a
mail-jewish Chanuka party. Spouses, SO's and friends all invited.

Date: Saturday Evening, December 3
Time: 8:00 pm till ?
Place: My home - 55 Cedar Ave
                 Highland Park, NJ 08904
Directions: available as file "directions" on mail-jewish email
     archives, also on the gopher and the Web page, otherwise, email me and I
     will send it out to you.

RSVP not required, but appreciated.
If you would like to bring something for the party, just let me
know. All food should be milchig/pareve.

Looking forward to seeing old friends again, as well as getting a chance
to meet some of you who "just" an email address now.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 09:45:26 -0500
Subject: Army

Just an add'l comment in this area.  Many Many years ago, I was in Aretz
in the '50's when the PRIOR Rosh-Hayeshiva of Ponevijsh was still alive
-- Harav Kahanaman ZT"L.  In those years, Israeli flags were raised and
could be seen flying right in front of the Yeshiva.  To the best of my
knowledge, NOBODY made a fuss about this sort of "Zionistic" display.
Of course, if one mentions something like that now......  The point that
I am making is that there is a PERCEPTION that the Chareidi have NO
gratitude or Hakarat Hatov toward anyone who is not Chareidi.  This is
part of the reason why Yom Ha'Atzmaut is such a sensitive issue there
.... it is NOt that the Chareidi do or do not say Hallel... it is the
fact that the Chareid do NOTHING to evidence any sort of solidarity with
the rest of the State.  A State, by the way, that provides money to
Yeshivot, a State that seeks to enable Yeshiva Students to both study
and perform Army Duty -- while making maximal allowances for the Limud
Torah, A State that tries VERY hard to run a Kosher Army even as most of
the recruits are NOT kosher, etc. etc.  I am not saying that the State
is perfect but I strongly believe that one of the reasons that Meretz is
able to attract as many votes as they have and mount such a vicious
campaign against religion as they have is because the Chareidi APPEAR to
demonstrate total non-caring (at a group level) for anyone who is not

Without getting into the Torat Umanto arguement, anyone who claims that
they would serve in TzaHal "if only the halacha required it" is playing
games.  The main excuse given to avoid service is the non-religious
non-tznius environment.  I will pose a general question.  Unless
everyone in the Chareidi camp is waiting for Mashiach, how do any of
these people ever expect the situation to CHANGE?  It seems to me
(sitting here comfortably in CH"UL) that the only way to EVER hope to
influence the state of affairs in the Army is for LOTS (not just one or
two) of Chareidi people to enlist -- preferably in big blocks similar to
Hesder fellows -- and show that they can "pull their own weight" even as
they are shomer mitzvot.



From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Sun,  20 Nov 94 9:06 +0200
Subject: RE: Army service

As someone who proudly serves in the army, I want to stress the respect
engendered by those who are frum and serve in the army. Yes, it is difficult
and quite a sacrifice. It's no picnic getting up at 5 a.m. instead of 05:30
to get to daaven in the morning, especially when one only gets 4 hours of
sleep. In isolated outposts the field kitchen is not 100% kosher. So one
sticks to eating only pareve or milchig foods in one's mess tin. I'll never
forget that Erev Yom Kippur in 1975 after basic training (and before officer
training) when I was a simple soldier on guard duty. It was the first time
in my life that I wasn't in shul saying Tfillat Zakah. You're all alone
in the middle of nowhere and you start reciting to yourself KOL NIDREI.
Tears were streaming down my cheeks. It was one of the most emotional
TFILLOT in my entire life.

Josh (that's Captain Josh :-)


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 09:54:06 +0200
Subject: Israeli army

     Several people have backed up my request for hakaras hatov (being
grateful) to the Israeli army for defending the land of Israel. Rav Kook
in many of his articles stresses that these deeds of the non-religious
demonstrate their attachment to the Jewish people and the spark within
their Jewish soul even when we do not agree with their motivations.

    I have several specific complaints against some communties. Because
of the dangers that soldiers undergo it is appropriate to offer some
blessing (mi-sheberach) for G-d to protect them. I do not particularly
care if this done at the reading of the Torah or some other occassion
but reciting such a prayer at some opportunity would demonstrate hakaras
hatov. Secondly, every year there is an uproar because some reporter
finds a group of people that ignore the sirens on Israel remembrance day
(Yom hazikzron) for fallen Israeli soldiers. There is a responsa of the
sephardic chief rabbi of Tel Aviv that it is more appropriate to say
tehillim than to stand for a siren which is a non-jewish custom.
Nevertheless, he stresses that in public one should stand because of
public opinion.  Again, I would welcome a public saying of prayers or
tehillim during Yom haZikaron rather than the utter dismissal of any
hakarat hatov that occurs in many communities.



From: Daniel Farkas <yku02195@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 21:25:57 -0500
Subject: Looking for sefer on Jewish Leap year calculations

I would request  any body's help in finding a sefer for a Maggid Shiur
at Ner Israel Toronto.  

Subject   Jewish Leap  Year Calculations   based on the Rambam & Chazon Ish
 written  by a Y.U. Student  or  former student.
Please advise  title   author & publisher ( if possible ) 
Thank You & Kol Toov


From: Leah S. Gordon <lsgordon@...>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 23:16:35 -0800
Subject: Modesty Guidelines Question

[Leah sent this to Shaul privately at my request after she submitted it
to the list. He has answered her privately, but did not want the reply
forwarded to the list. Leah would like to get other open reponses to the
following: Mod.]

Mr. Wallach has not yet answered an earlier query about his "Modesty
Guidelines," which I will repeat, because I wonder about the answer as

What on earth could be the objection to a girl sleeping over at
a female friend's house?

Leah S. Gordon


From: David Kaufmann <kaufmann@...>
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 94 22:29:19 CST
Subject: On Chanukah gelt on the fifth night

In the Yud-Tes farbrengen for 5734 the Rebbe says there is no known
origin for the custom of giving gelt on the fifth (some on the fourth)
night, but that it has become widespread. (This from _Sefer Minhagim._)

The fifth night is also the only night that cannot fall on Shabbos.
Thus, as the Rebbe points out (this came to, er, light, in a recent,
remarkable story about the Rebbe) whatever light - spiritual and
physical - is spread on the fifth night occurs _only_ through the
efforts of human beings.

(I will see if the story is on the chabad gopher and pass on the info.
If it isn't, I'll try to retell it.)

David Kaufmann INTERNET:	<kaufmann@...>


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 08:55 IST
Subject: Opera & Stern

A correction to my previous posting in the name of my wife: The seat at
the Opera belonged to Max Stern, the college's benefactor.

Yisrael Medad


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Sun,  20 Nov 94 8:50 +0200
Subject: RE: Rivka's age

Just as an aside, the Gemara in Avoda Zara (36b) states that the Bet Din
of David was the one who first issued the GEZERA against YICHUD with an
unmarried woman. So what happened with Rivka being *alone* with someone
else really isn't an issue.



From: Michael Shimshoni <MASH@...>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 16:08:15 +0200
Subject: Roles

Josh Abelson comments on David Charlop's comment on roles:

>    While I do not disagree with what you write (in fact, I tend to
>agree with it), there is another strong arguement that can be made.
>Childbirth, even today, is dangerous (statistically it is now safer to
>have an abortion than to give birth).  The Torah does not command us to
>place our lives in danger, and to command women to have children would do
>just that.

Would it  not be the  other way around? One  is commanded not  to risk
one's  life, venishmartem  me'od lenafshoteikhem  (take great  care of
your souls), thus if  indeed there is a major danger  to the mother in
giving birth (and it surely was so  not so long ago), women should try
to avoid getting pregnant if the matter is left to them.  On the other
hand if the command "be fruitful"  applies to women as well, then they
risk their lives  while carrying out what the Torah  commanded them to
do, and this would be acceptable.

 Michael Shimshoni


From: <JEKORBMAN@...> (Jeff Korbman)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:26:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yaakov's Deception

What we could tell our children is simply how the Torah seems to treat 
Yaakov's "deception", namely, not so lightly.

Now if you want to subscribe to the "Patriarch/Matriarch can do no wrong" 
school of thought, you  could argue that the syntax of the posuk (Gen 
27:19) suggests that first Yaakov identifies himself (Anochi) and then 
identifies Esav as the firstborn (Esav B'chorecha).  Basically, this is 
Rashi on that posuk.

Having said  this, it seems to me that the Torah takes Yaakov to task for 
being less than honest.  For instance, after serving for 7 years for 
Rachel he is deceived by Laban and given Leah. (In fact, the Midrash 
teaches there 29:25 that Leah says to him: You're upset about being 
deceived, You who deceived Isaac for the blessing!) For instance, 
Yaakov's sons come to him - and deceive him - by stating that Yoseph is 
dead.  (Here, it is interesting because they use clothing i.e. Yosef's 
coat to deceive Yaakov, whereupun Yaakov used clothing as the deceptive 
tool with Isaac).  Finally, both Avraham (Gen 15:5) and Isaac (Gen 26:4) 
are given the blessing that there children will be like the "stars in 
Heaven" - very spiritual in overtone.  On the other hand, Yaacove is told 
that his child will be like the "dust of the earth" - more physical in 
nature.  Why the difference?  Perhaps, these examples are the price 
Yaacov paid for being less than honest in obtaining the brocho.
So what makes Yaakov a Yaakov Avinu?   Genisis 32:28
When Yaakov is asked his name, and he responds "Yaakov" meaning 
"deceiver" (see Rashi ad loc) and admits what he has done, then he is 
renamed Israel - a prevailer / leader. He began the teshuva process. 
Greatness is not in never falling, to paraphrase Vince Lombardi, but to 
rise after each fall.


End of Volume 16 Issue 68