Volume 17 Number 37
                       Produced: Mon Dec 19 23:58:57 1994

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

(K) on the internet
         [Binyomin Segal]
         [Avi Feldblum]
Army (2)
         [Ari Shapiro, Shaul Wallach]
college for yeshiva bocher?
         [Simone Shapiro]
Correct cantillation
         [Elhanan Adler]
Medical School as bitul Torah
         [Joel Goldberg]
MJ Limits
         [Deborah J. Stepelman]
         [Josh Cappell]
Scientific Truths about Fruit Juice and Hametz
         [Alan Ash]
Stifling Daas Torah & sherut leumi
         [Eli Turkel]
strict vs. restrictive
         [Frank Silbermann]
Thunder & Lightning
         [Eli Turkel]


From: <berger@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 94 07:36:24 -0500
Subject: (K) on the internet

After all the talk about a Kashrus catalog, I thought the group would
like to know the OK Kashrus Laboratory's e-mail address. It's


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 23:54:26 -0500
Subject: Administrivia

I guess the mj-chaburah idea was a reasonable one, I see that we have
about 50 people signed up in just one day. I'm writing the info and
welcome for the list now, starting with just the announcement that I
made yesterday on mail-jewish as the Welcome file. We should be ready to
start discussing the details on the list tomorrow.

I made an error in where to send the information for joining the
rabbinics list. Please send it to me at either
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net. If you sent it
already to <rabbinics@...>, I'm pretty sure I got it, but
if you do not get a message saying you are subscribed by 24 hours after
you read this, please recontact me.

One group of volunteers that we will need are people to help your Rabbis
be comfortable enough to use email. While we have a nice number on
mail-jewish, the goal is for the rabbinics list to reach out to more of
computer-shy or computer-unsure. If you think that your Rabbi has been
thinking about what this Internet world is all about, here is a good
opportunity to get them involved.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 94 21:26:15 -0500
Subject: Army

<   This issue seems to be interrelated with the question of whether
<we have the commandment today to conquer Erez Yisrael, over which the
<Rambam and the Ramban differed. The Rambam did not list it in his Sefer
<Ha-Mizwot and the Ramban added it (see his Positive Commandment 4 in
<his comments on the Rambam). In this connection R. Ovadia Yosef wrote
<as follows recently in a controversial article that appeared in Tehumin
<(Vol. 10, 5749, p. 43):

The Avnie Nezer and other Acharonim explain that the Rambam certainly 
holds the mitzvah of conquering the land of  Israel applies today he didn't 
specfifically enumerate because the Rambam felt that it was included in
the mitzvah of appointing a king.

Ari Shapiro

From: Shaul Wallach <F66204@...>
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 94 21:10:36 IST
Subject: Army

     What Ari Shapiro is saying was essentially already mentioned
in what was already posted in the name of Rav Frank ZS"L. There is
no disagreement that the army of David Ha-Melekh was an army of
Zaddiqim. The question is, though, whether the same thing applies
to Benei Torah. There is no reason to assume that the Zaddiqim
in David's army were Talmidei Hakhamim. In fact, as Rav Kook ZS"L
mentioned in his letter, it appears from the Talmud (Sanhedrin 49a)
that the Talmidei Hakhamim were not included. The modern equivalent
would be the frum businessman, professional man or salaried worker
who comes home after a long day's work and studies regularly, or
at least prays 3 times a day and keeps all the basics of Jewish
observance like Shabbat and Kashrut. One certainly does not have
to be a Talmid Hakham (even according to the definition of the
Shulhan `Arukh Yore De`a 243:2, which allows him to work for his
living) in order to be a Zaddiq.




From: Simone Shapiro <simone@...>
Date: Tue,  6 Dec 94 11:48:20 PST
Subject: college for yeshiva bocher?

I'm looking for colleges which have support systems for a yeshiva
bocher, i.e., a frum chevra, a kosher meal plan, boys only dorms, daily,
shabbes, and yom tov services, etc.

So far, Harvard, Penn, and Columbia, have been mentioned.  I'd like to
hear the inside story from frum students there, and also get
recommendations of other schools to consider.  Brandeis, Boston U., and
Cornell have also been mentioned.

Simone Shapiro


From: Elhanan Adler <ELHANAN@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 4:50:31 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Correct cantillation

Zvi Weiss wrote:
>Another example where the Trop is crucial is in Ki Tissa... If one reads,
>Vayikra (pause) Bshem Hashem --- then it means "And he called out the Name of
>Hashem" (cf. Bereishit by avraham avinu).  If one reads the correct manner of
>Vayikra Vshem (pause) Hashem -- then it means "And he called out to Hashem by
>Name" which is a very different meaning.  I believe that Rashi in Ki Tissa
>makes this point.

The Mishnah Berurah in Hilkhot Rosh Hashanah (581/1) brings this in the
name of the Avudraham with reference to selihot: "one should pause
slightly between Vshem and Hashem"

I think very few hazanim have seen this Mishnah Berurah.

* Elhanan Adler                   University of Haifa Library              *
*                                 Tel.: 972-4-240535  FAX: 972-4-257753    *
* Internet/ILAN:          <ELHANAN@...>                          *


From: <goldberg@...> (Joel Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 10:22:56 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Medical School as bitul Torah

Shmuel Weidberg <shmuel@...> wrote
(I apologise forquoting so much, but it all seems to necessary for context)
> Reb Moshe Feinstein in a teshuva to his son-in-law concerning autopsies 
> for the purpose of gaining medical knowledge says that there is no 
> mitzvah to learn how to be a doctor just as there is no mitzvah to become 
> wealthy in order to be able to give tzedaka. He says you only have the 
> responsiblity to save a life if you already know how to do it, but there 
> is no requirement to learn for the future.
> This means that the boyscout motto of be prepared only applies during 
> your free time. It seems that if you would be spending the time learning 
> torah, then learning first aid would be bitul Torah.

  It seems to me that then the requirement to learn how to swim only applies
 when you find yourself in the water. Yet we know that a father is required
 to teach his sons how to swim.


From: <stepelma@...> (Deborah J. Stepelman)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 22:04:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MJ Limits

[I thank Deborah for correctly reading my intentions and statements. I
was going to have to write this so I thank her for doing so. Avi]

	Shaul Wallach is using the wrong numbers when he claims that his
number of submissions is low in the scheme of things. He incorrectly
claims that Avi set a target of 4 volumes per day.  A check of the
"welcome to Mail-Jewish" message will show that 4/day is an *upper
bound* for any given day.  Avi's targets are 10 - 20 volumes per week,
with no more than 4 on any day.  10 per week would average 1.4 per day;
20 per week would yield approximately 2.8 per day.  SO, rather than Avi
falling short of his goal in November, as Shaul claims, he slightly
exceeded that goal.  Perhaps he was still catching up after the chaggim.
Now that he is down to 1.7/day in December, as of Shaul's writing, he
has, indeed, returned to his target region.  IMHO, .93 posts per day out
of 1.7 is not an insignificant number!

[Just as a note, I allow myself to violate this number on Sunday quite
often if I don't put much out on Friday and Saturday, so that there are
about 8 or 9 over the 3 day weekend. Avi]

	Perhaps most subscribers are so overwhelmed catching up with 
their reading that they haven't had the time to respond to Avi's request 
for suggestions. -:)  What is considered a statistically good response 
rate to a questionnaire or survey?

Deborah J. Stepelman
Bronx HS of Science ... <stepelma@...>


From: <josh@...> (Josh Cappell)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 12:30:40 EST
Subject: PI

	A couple of corrections though.
1) The formula I gave for the thickness should be divided by two.
2) The tosefos to which I referred is not in k'suvos.  It is in Succah 
		Daf 8 Amud 1.

					Josh Cappell


From: <AASH@...> (Alan Ash)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 22:04:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Scientific Truths about Fruit Juice and Hametz

ralph zwier writes re. SCIENTIFIC TRUTHS about fruit juice and hametz-

in an article titled "the bio-chemistry of chametz" (jewish study magazine 
pesach 5741)FELIX B MUNK  explaines why fruit juices in the dough do not
produce chametz. the acid in the juice prevents one of the enzymes in the
dough (alpha-amylase)from breaking down the duo-saccharides into 
mono-saccharides, thus interfering with the process that eventually produces 
the carbon dioxide gas associated with chametz 
alan ash 


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 08:28:14 +0200
Subject: Stifling Daas Torah & sherut leumi

    I have never been happy with the phrase "stifling" Daas Torah
which some people have used. Nevertheless, I think that Menken has
given new meaning to this word. He writes about sherut leumi
>> The implication that there are great risks does not imply
>> that every individual fails to survive them.
    His accusations are a not true.  There are absolutely no more 
risks in working for sherut leumi than in any other job and 
probably much less since it is supervised. I have no problems if
someone objects to sherut leumi because his rabbi has told him not to
send his daughters there or if someone suggests possible halachic 
objections. Yaakov seems to ignore these possibilities because that 
offers the opportunity of arguing and giving legitimacy to the other 
side. Instead he insinuates that many sherut leumi girls are not 
keeping mitzvot and are subject to all sorts of pressures and only 
some individuals manage to survice. Thus he slanders a whole group of 
very hard working girls and transgresses on lashon hara (stated 
explicitly by the Haftez Chaim). Instead of insulting institutions 
that he knows nothing about I would suggest that he speak with the 
head of some Bnei Akivah Ulpanot. He might be surprised at what he 
finds out. My daughters who attended some ulpanot were subject to many 
lectures on modesty and proper behavior for religious women.
     As I stated before sherut leumi is one hunderd percent voluntary 
and can be left at any time. There is absolutely no evidence that sherut 
leumi girls are subject to any pressures. I am sure that individual girls 
have fooled around. I have also heard stories of girls from Beis Yaakov 
schools getting pregnant in high school.  I am sure that every yeshiva
has its graduates that it is not proud of. There are enough newspaper 
stories of charedim involving in all sorts of crimes from smuggling, 
cheating the government to drugs and involvement with the mafia. 
All these stories prove is that individuals sin. 
      One of objections to "stifling" daas Torah is the fact that some 
people (not the gedolim) make false accusations in order to "prove" that 
their side is right. They are not willing to concede any legitimacy to 
the other side. In defending the honor of the girls in sherut leumi I 
sort of feel like proving that the blood libels were false.



From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 07:35:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: strict vs. restrictive

>> it is wrong to suggest that Chassidim "demand...higher tolerances
>> of kashrut" when all that is involved is a different interpretation.

In Vol.17 #28 Aleeza Esther Berger comments:
> 	all that was meant was that the Chassidic slaughtering is more 
>	*restrictive*, i.e. has an extra regulation or two.  In this sense,
>	yes, the Chassidim are demanding a higher standard, and the
>	non-Chassidic world *is* being a little less careful.  

Not necessarily -- only if the additional restrictions are _relevant_
to kashrut.  If not, the extra restrictions imply no greater strictness.
For example:

	Beryl eats both OU and TRIANGLE-K,
	Schmeryl eat _only_ TRIANGLE-K,

then Schmeryl's standard is more restrictive, but not necessarily stricter.

Frank Silbermann	<fs@...>
Tulane University	New Orleans, Louisiana  USA


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 08:07:04 +0200
Subject: Thunder & Lightning

    In a shiur I recently attended the rav claimed that if if one saw
lightning and then heard the thunder connected with that lightning shortly
afterwards that one makes only one beracha on the two. I have seen other
sources that claim that one makes 2 berachot unless the lightning and
thunder were simultaneous. Both sides base themselves on the Mishna
Brura 227:5. It seems to depend on the translation of the word "techuphim"
does this mean simultaneous or near each other? I would appreciate any



End of Volume 17 Issue 37