Volume 17 Number 79
                       Produced: Sun Jan  8 21:58:57 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Common Law Marriage
         [Sheldon Korn]
Israeli Zip Codes (2)
         [Lawrence S. Kalman, Janice Gelb]
Legal Loopholes
         [Eli Turkel]
Marriage in a Synagogue
         [Ralph Zwier]
Orthodox Double Ring Ceremony
         [Aryeh Blaut]
Religious Zionists and Haredim
         [Naftoli Biber]
Sherut Leumi (2)
         [Zvi Weiss, Yisrael [and Batya] Medad]
         [Stan Tenen]


From: Sheldon Korn <rav@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 16:27:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Common Law Marriage

Re v17#76 and in partaicular the Quotation of Rav Henkin zal by Mr. 
Lazaroff.  Rav Avrahham Price Z"L of Toronto would agree with Rav 
Henken's view that it is insignificant who the mesader Kiddushin was 
(officiant).  He also mentioned verbally, that if both parties lived 
together and they specified that under no circumstances do they want to 
be considered husband and wife....(they had no civil marriage and no 
Kiddushin) they are to be considered married and a get is required.


Sheldon Korn


From: Lawrence S. Kalman <VSLAWR@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Jan 95 09:50:58 +0200
Subject: Re: Israeli Zip Codes

In Volume 17 Number 66 David H. Kramer writes:
> IMPORTANT NOTE : [Using Israeli Zip Codes] is ONLY good advice when sending
> mail from Israel to within Israel - when sending from the US it is highly
> recommended NOT TO USE the 'mikud' because in the rapid sorting process it is
> often confused with the US zip code and is sent to the US town with that zip
> code before being forwarded to Israel - SLOWING delivery by days - if not
> weeks.

A way to avoid this problem is to use the European convention for addressing
mail: put the postal code before the city; e.g., "91000 Jerusalem, Israel"
rather than "Jerusalem 91000, Israel".  This seems to be sufficient for the
mail to bypass the normal scanning for zip codes.

I think that the Israel Post Office decision to adopt five-digit postal codes
was a bad one, just because of confusion with US Zip Codes.  I don't know of
any other country that uses a five-digit system.  I realize that there was a
deliberate intention not to use Latin characters in the postal code, but I
would have thought that an all-numeric code four digits long would have allowed
sufficient granularity for a country the size of Israel.

- Lawrence

From: <janiceg@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 08:09:53 -0800
Subject: Israeli Zip Codes

One way to get around this is to include the Israeli zip code between 
the city name and the country name (e.g., Ra'anana 43401 ISRAEL). This 
enables the Israeli post office to take advantage of the mikud being 
there without confusing the US post office. I've done this many times 
and it works fine.

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janiceg@...>   | message is the return address. 


From: <turkel@...> (Eli Turkel)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 95 14:02:35 +0200
Subject: Legal Loopholes

     I would like to clarify a comment I made in my previous post on
this subject. Loopholes are used only when there is a conflict between
two objectives. A simple example is to review the case I brought with
Rabbi Tarfon.  Rabbi Tarfon was a rich cohen; as a Cohen he was entitled
to to eat Terumah and so is his family. Terumah costs less than ordinary
food because it has a lower demand. During a famine Rabbi Tarfon married
300 women so that they were entitled to eat terumah and so could
purchase food at a lower price.  I assume that Rav Tarfon would not
suggest such a procedure during ordinary times. Then one should keep the
Torah's "real" intention that Terumah is only for the Cohen's
family. However, there is also a requirement to feed the poor. Hence,
when the famine arose he used the "loophole" to enlarge his
family. Again, I stress that in this cases the marriages were full
marriages and not legal fiction marriages. Just the intent was to get
around terumah laws rather than an intention to live with the women.
The Gemara doesn't state but again I assume that after the famine was
over he divorced the women he wasn't living with.



From: Ralph Zwier <zwierr@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 18:19:21 
Subject: Marriage in a Synagogue

When I got married, we went to Rabbi Groner Shlita in Melbourne. 
Almost before I had opened my mouth to ask him to officiate he said 
words to the following effect:

"Refoel, you know I can only come to the wedding if two conditions 
are met: Firstly the chuppah must be OUTDOORS, and secondly your 
aliyah must be on the Shabbes before the Chuppa." (Many people here in 
Mebourne have the Offruf one week earlier than this so that the 
Kallah can come to the Offruf).

I understood (perhaps from something he said) that the Chuppah needed 
to be under the stars for some reason. Indeed I have heard of a 
wedding where the Mesader Kiddushin reluctantly did it in a shul and 
they were very particular to send someone upstairs and open all the 

I notice that nobody has referred to this reason for not having a 
wedding in a Shul. Does anyone have any info?---
Ralph S Zwier
Double Z Computer, Prahran, VIC Australia       Voice +61-3-521-2188
<zwierr@...>                        Fax   +61-3-521-3945


From: <AryehBlaut@...> (Aryeh Blaut)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 15:39:14 -0500
Subject: Orthodox Double Ring Ceremony

Esther Posen, in her response kept refering to an "Orthodox Wedding".
May be I'm just being sensitive, but shouldn't it read "Halachik
Wedding" (A wedding according to Jewish Law)?

Within a Halachik wedding, there is room for individual minhagim (customs).
 Therefore, there isn't anything wrong with the chatan (groom) giving
his kala (bride) a gift in the yichud room.  (I have heard of many
"Yeshiva-type" people doing this also).

I think that the question of "Double rings" should lead into the topic
of men wearing jewlery in general.  In other words, would a ring be
considered "beged Isha" (clothing of a woman) and therefore be
prohibited for him to have on?

Aryeh Blaut


From: Naftoli Biber <bibern@...>
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 23:43:22 AEST
Subject: Religious Zionists and Haredim

In a recent posting about bat-mitzvah ceremonies Gilad J. Gevaryah says:

> Prof. Dov Sadan, wrote about the first episode of celebrating Bat
> Mitzvah in Eastern Europe in 1902. It was so controversial at the time,
> that the religious Zionists joined the haredim in opposing it. 

I was under the impression that in 1902 religious zionists *were* haredim - 
at least in the way that we would view them these days.  
In the pictures and descriptions of the early religious zionist rabbis the 
garb they wore is the same as one would see in Bnei Brak, Williamsburgh and
even some areas of Melbourne :-)

It seems that sometimes our political (or PC) views colour the way we view 
historical events.

   Naftoli Biber                          <bibern@...>
   Melbourne, Australia                   Voice & Fax: +61-3-527-5370


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 12:45:55 -0500
Subject: Sherut Leumi

1. Yaakov Menkin originally stressed the corrupt moral atmosphere when he
  strongly attacked Sherut Leumi service.  This was not only my reaction
  but those of other respondents, as well.  Such poor moral state was
  linked pretty closely to the state of Morals in the IDF.  The CONTINUING
  reference to the poor moral state that continued for much of his postings
  seems to show that -- until the end of the posting when the matter of a 
  co-ed environment was raised -- this was the primary objection -- an
  objection that is only comprehensible if we put the moral atmosphere of
  Sherut Leumi on par with that of the IDF.
2. Thank you for the citations re the Shaarei Aharon -- however, the original
  posting was unclear that Rav Rotter had a problem with women doing volun-
  teer work, anywhere solely because it is under the "banner" of Sherut Leumi.
3. Thank you for the calrificaiton of the Chazon Ish.

4. If the original poster is indeed interested in not defaming individuals,
  it would have been nice if he had not begun by making statements that so
  many of us interpreted as being very defamatory toward women who serve in
  Sherut Leumi as well as toward those who were upset by such comments.
5. In reading the Art-Scroll history of R. Yaakov Kamietski ZT"L, there is an
  interesting vignette where R. Yaakov stated that his granddaughters *did*
  volunteer work (at a hospital, I believe) but that he objected to a secular
  religiously-insensitive government having a say over the environment in which
  Jewish young women would be placed.  Based upon that, perhpas, the "solution"
  to this matter is NOT to tell people that Chareidi girls will not do any form
  of volunteer service.  rather, perhpas the Chareidi community can work to
  develop its OWN version of such service -- which while independant of the
  secular government -- serves the same goal of providing a framework for
  women to express their own hakarat hatov toward the Chevra.  As Shaul 
  Wallach points out, the Chareidi community already has many volunteer
  organizations... Perhaps, this represents an opportunity for the Chareidi
  World to do an "end run" around the rest of the society in both demonstrating
  their hakarat hatov toward everyone else while -- at the same time -- 
  maintaining their own integrity.


From: MEDAD%<ILNCRD@...> (Yisrael [and Batya] Medad)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 95 14:09 IST
Subject: Sherut Leumi

Re posting of Y. Menken, Vol. 57, #38 - On behalf of my wife:

Y. Menken is no expert on Sherut Leumi (S.L.).  The contract is not with
the state as we learned when we attempted to have our oldest benefit
from travel subsidies as girl soldiers do but we were informed that as
the S.L. is done through a private organization, it can't be done.  And
that of course, is the basis for the permissive psak that the girls are
still under the authority of their parents and/or educators.

We've had plenty of experience both with three girls doing full service
(our third is in her first year; the other two did two years each) and
as we live at Shiloh, where between 2 and 7 girls do S.L. each year, and
we're here 13 years, we know what S.L. is.

There are competing private organizations each providing different jobs,
stipends and living conditions, either at home or away, and Torah
classes each week.  The girls (and their parents) can choose from a very
broad range of responsibilities.  They make a very real contribution
to the state, its people, the unfortunate, the lacking, the
underprivileged.  It is a real honor to have a S.L. girl.

Yisrael [and Batya] Medad


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 14:55:22 -0800
Subject: Weaving

Here are some quotations that relate to the idea the Torah and the
"heavens" are woven.  This relates to the discussion on the solar and
lunar cycles and the 3,19 Torus knot that I submitted previously. The
idea here is that one possible root for "Reshit" is Reshet - a woven

These quotations were provided to me by Martin Farren, Ph.D., a member
of Meru Foundation's board of advisors:

Again the Emperor [of Rome] said to Rabban Gamaliel: 'It is written, He
counteth the number of the stars etc. (P. 147:4) In what way is that
remarkable; I too can count them!' Rabban Gamaliel brought some quinces,
put them into a sieve [i.e. a round, woven basket], whirled them around,
and said, 'Count them.' 'Keep them still,' he requested. Thereupon
Rabban Gamaliel observed, 'But the Heavens revolve so.' (Sanhedrin, 39a)

When they brought R. Eleazar b. Perata [for his trial] they asked him, 
'Why have you been studying [the Torah] and why have you been stealing?' 
He answered, 'If one is a scholar he is not a robber, if a robber, he is 
not a scholar, and as I am not the one I am neither the other.' 'Why 
then,' they rejoined, 'are you titled Master?' 'I,' replied he, 'am a 
Master of Weavers.' ('Avodah Zarah, 17b)

R. Simeon b.Pazzi said in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi on the authority 
of Bar Kappara: He who knows how to calculate the cycles and planetary 
courses, but does not, of him Scripture saith, but they regard not the 
work of the Lord, neither have they considered the operation of his 
hands. (Isa. 5:12) R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Johanan's name: How 
do we know that it is one's duty to calculate the cycles and planetary 
courses? Because it is written, for this is your wisdom and 
understanding in the sight of the peoples: (Deut. 4:6) what wisdom and 
understanding is in the sight of the peoples? Say it is the science of 
cycles and planets.  (Shabbat, 75a)

These quotations also directly apply to the Continuous Creation model in 
the letter sequence of B'Reshit and to the skills needed to build the 
Tabernacle as listed in Shmot (which includes the ability to brocade, 
embroider and weave.)

Good Shabbos,


End of Volume 17 Issue 79