Volume 18 Number 48
                       Produced: Fri Feb 17  0:34:56 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Birchat Hagomel
         [Ezra Dabbah]
Calling a Levi First
         [Sheldon Korn]
Chillul Shabbos for Non-Jews
         [Richard Schiffmiller]
Daf Yomi and Nach (Prophets)
         [Warren Burstein]
         [Zvi Weiss]
         [Harry Weiss]
Interesting Kosher Food
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Mikveh and travel
         [Chaya London]
minimally kosher
         ["Lon Eisenberg"]
Rewards of sin...
         [David Charlap]
Tachanun with Chatan
         [Warren Burstein]
         [Neil Rischall]
YU and affiliates
         [Akiva Miller]


From: <EDABBAH@...> (Ezra Dabbah)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:58:47 -0500
Subject: Birchat Hagomel

I was very happy to read Eric Safern's submission on birchat
hagomel. Rabbi Waldenberg is to be commended in taking this first step
in eliminating this bracha from common air travel. I myself fly over
50,000 miles a year and I find modern day travel exciting and
relaxful.(It's where I catch up on my mj backlog). I believe that when
the rabbis made the takana of this particular bracha they took into
account the statistical probabilities of an accident.  Today's air
travel is safer than a daylight walk by my office near the Empire State


From: Sheldon Korn <rav@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 23:31:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Calling a Levi First

Regarding the calling of a Kohen first in the  Torah reading sequence 
and in his absence calling a Levi.  
This is frowned upon by the Halacha eventhough there are synagogues who 
will call a Levi first.  The Halacha is that when there is is no Kohen 
"nifsekah hashura"  the sequence is interupted or broken.  In 
otherwords the Levi is called only when he is preceded by a 
Kohen...otherwise he is offered aharon or maftir.  Certainly, in some 
cases where there are simchas and many honours to be given, the order of 
Kohen Levi Yisroel is adjusted somewhat.

Sheldon Korn


From: Richard Schiffmiller <moe@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 10:25:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Chillul Shabbos for Non-Jews

	I participate in a weekly shiur whose topics range far and wide 
(in fact, the moderator attends when he is in Teaneck!).  Recently, we 
have begun examining the subject of the relationship between Jews and 
non-Jews.  Non-Jews may be divided broadly into two categories: Akum and 
Ger Toshav.  R. Meir defines Ger Toshav as one who does not worship idols 
and is so accepted in Beis Din.  Chachamim say it is one who keeps the 7 
Noachide commandments, and they do not mention Beis Din.  Rambam in H. 
Shmitta V'Yovel decides according to Aruchin 29a that after the cessation 
of Yovel, formal acceptance by Beis Din of a Ger Toshav is no longer 
practised.  Thus, one can make an argument for almost all non-Jews that 
we meet today being considered Ger Toshav.  I am not getting into the 
more complex aspect of motivation for the performance of the Mitzvot 
(i.e., because Hashem commanded them or because of other reasons).

	There are major differences in Halacha once we decide someone is 
a Ger Toshav.  For one, if he touches our wine, it is forbidden to be 
drunk by a Jew MiD'Rabbanan (because of fear of intermarriage) but it is 
permitted to have benefit from it (i.e., sell it, etc.) because we know 
it was not used for idolatry, whereas if an Akum touches it, it is also 
forbidden to benefit from it.  Moreover, there is a Mitzva in the Torah 
(for Ramban, one of Taryag) L'hachayoso, to save the life of a Ger 
Toshav (P. Behar - "Ger V'Soshav V'chai Imach").  Thus it is forbidden to 
accept money to save or heal a Ger Toshav, just the same as for a Jew 
(Yoreh Da'ah discusses how doctors may earn a living healing - what the 
money goes for).  But the difference is, for a Jew who is in danger, one 
may violate Shabbos, even for a doubt whether the danger is life 
threatening, while for a Ger Toshav one may not.  This is quoted 
L'Halacha in Rambam H. Shabbos Ch. 2 and in Shulchan Aruch O.H. Ch. 330 
and elsewhere, based on Talmudic texts in Avodah Zarah and elsewhere.  
My problem is that we do not see frum doctors today abstaining from 
Chilul Shabbos for their non-Jewish patients, even if they are Gerei 
Toshav.  What is the Hetare?  I wrote to a YU Rabbi who is a noted 
expert in medical ethics, and he responded orally that R. Moshe  
Feinstein in a Teshuva quotes the Chasam Sofer who gives a Hetare.  I 
asked for the exact source, and he is currently looking.  Does anyone 
have information that can enlighten me on this?

	P.S.  I am not a medical doctor.



From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:14:09 GMT
Subject: Re: Daf Yomi and Nach (Prophets)

Gilad J. Gevaryahu writes:

> The Talmud is full of Midrashic, anecdotal material, which is not
> suppose to be taken literally. For example ...
> ... "a man should not eat onion and garlic [starting] from its head
> but from its leaves" (Beitza 25a) ...

Orach Chaim 170:9 contains the same law.  The Be'er Heitev and Mishne
Brurah permit doing so on Shabbat.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 13:31:47 -0500
Subject: Hamentash

This is from my wife and I really claim NO responsibility... However, I have
no time to check this out.
1. What is the documented origin of the Hamentash?  Emphasis on "Documented".
2. What is the documented "correct" filling for the Hamentash?  Again,
  Emphasis on "Documented".
3. Which is more important the Hamentash or the Latke?



From: <harry.weiss@...> (Harry Weiss)
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 13:32:19 -0800
Subject: Hashgachot

Moshe Goldberg questions whether my comments regarding Hashgacha in
Israel is appropriate for mail Jewish.  Kashrut and Kashrut standards
are a question of what is halachically acceptable and thus belong on MJ.

There have been numerous cases cited in the Jewish Media on this issue
during the past few years.  The most famous case I can remember have to
do with clubs or halls in Tel Aviv which had belly dancers.  The Court
ordered the Rabbanut to certify these as kosher, despite the Mashgiach
being unable to enter as a result to modesty issues.  There have also
been a number of cases involving Shabbat observance.  I do not save old
issues of the various papers so I don't have additional specific

I am also not saying whether the Rabbanut was correct in the above
cases, but these are cases where the secular Court dictate Rabbinical
issues to the Rabbanut.

In Rabbi Eidlitz' book "Is it Kosher" he advises against relying of the
supervision of the Rabbanut except for the Mehadrin.



From: <BR00318@...> (Mordechai Horowitz)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 11:26:19 ECT
Subject: Interesting Kosher Food

Just to add to the strange hechsherim, I have seen a O-U dairy Bernaisse
sauce which it designed for use on meat only.


From: Chaya London <CGREENBE@...>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 23:00:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mikveh and travel

Robert Book asks about the timing of immersion in the mikveh when a couple 
is apart at the appointed time.  I have unfortunately had to deal with this 
one several times in the short time since I have been married thanks to 
interviews...  Anyway, I was told by both a Chassidic rabbi and a modern 
orthodox rabbi (one west coast one east coast) to wait for immersion until 
I can be with my husband.  I have not pursued the answer beyond 
practicality at this point, but I am sure the answer would be somewhat as 
you had stated (appearance)- though no one is supposed to know about when 
one is going to mikveh.  It is a bit confusing, since in my classes prior 
to marriage there was a big point made about what a mitzvah it is to immerse 
on the correct night whether or not one has marital relations.

_Chaya London


From: "Lon Eisenberg" <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 11:42:29 +0000
Subject: minimally kosher

If the kashruth certification given by the Israel rabbinate is to
certify the product/establishment as "minimally kosher" (using any
necessary leniency or minority opinion to "kvetch" it into being
kosher), as has been suggested both on this list and by others to whom
I've spoken, then it seems like what such certification is stating is
that "it may be kosher".  If there is no certification at all this is
still true.  So what is such certification worth?

Is the rabbinate providing kashruth certification for the hilonim
(unobservant)?  IMHO, we shouldn't worry about contorting the system to
prevent the hilonim from transgressing; the transgressions are their
choice.  It reminds me of when (some of) the haredim [extreme right wing
religious] were trying to prevent the use of daylight saving time on the
grounds that the hilonim will open their (entertainment) establishments
Sat. night at, say, 7 P.M., so they wanted to make 7 P.M. not be
Shabbath.  I like daylight saving time and don't believe that I should
contort what the hilonim choose to do into being okay.

If this is the same case for kashruth certification, then I would
propose that the standard be raised to being "definitely (not maybe)
kosher", perhaps to the standard that is currently called "mehadrin" (I
still don't understand how non-glatt meat can be certified when about
half the population is Sephardi and not permitted to eat it).  If some
places lose their certification, so be it; I'd rather not be fooled into
eating food that "may be kosher".

Unless someone can show me a flaw in my logic, I'll continue to eat in
establishments with rabbinate certification, provided that the mashgiah
convinces me that it is definitely kosher (I'm skeptical if the mashgiah
won't eat there).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5658438 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 95 21:49:06 EST
Subject: Rewards of sin...

Moise Haor <pp002129@...> writes:
>In response of Chaim Stern's posting V18#31, let me point out that in
>Pirkei Avot, 2nd Chapter, 1st mishna, says "Consider the cost of a
>mitzvah against its REWARD, and the REWARD of a SIN against its
>cost". So there is a concept of "reward" for a sin....but i have no
>further details...

This concept is rather obvious.  Of course there is a reward for sin.
For instance, if you steal money from someone, you have the money!
Similarly for other kinds of sinning.

I think that's what this mishna means when it refers to the reward of
a sin.


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:51:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Tachanun with Chatan

Elhanan Adler writes:
>(I believe the Mishnah brurah says the choson should step out
>during tachanun - not avoid going to shul!).

He says "tov lizaher shelo yikanes hachatan", (it is best that the
groom not enter), he doesn't say he should step out.

 |warren@         bein hashmashot, in which state are the survivors
/ nysernet.org    buried?


From: <RISCHALCPA@...> (Neil Rischall)
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 00:34:32 -0500
Subject: Tachnun

Rabbi Yisroel Reisman mentioned this in a shuir given on Feb. 11 Motzei
Shabbos. What I remember from the shuir is that when he was a chosen he
asked Rav Moshe Feinstein this question. The reply was that if you find
a minyan on such a level that they miss the zichus of saying tachnun you
should refrain from going to it. Unfortunately this is not a problem
with a lot of minyanim (Niskatnu Hadoros )


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 03:41:56 -0500
Subject: Re: YU and affiliates

In MJ 18:27, Elie Rosenfeld writes:
>Be that as may, if YU _does_ have sufficient control over the affiliates,
>I believe it should forbid clubs which violate basic Jewish principles,
>just as it mandates that the affiliates are closed on Yom Tovim and have
>kosher cafeterias.  Or just as it presumably would not allow a "Cordozo
>Movie Club" to show movies in the student lounge on Shabbos.

Part of the problem is defining "basic Jewish principles". I highly
doubt that Shabbos and Yom Tov are observed at the hospital of YU's
Albert Einstein College of Medicine to the extent that they are observed
at Shaarei Tzedek or Laniado hospitals in Israel, or even to any extent
at all beyond what other American hospitals do. I would be very happy to
hear that this is the case, but if it were so, I think I'd have heard of
it already.

Many MJ-ers feel that there are certain student groups which the
University should actively prohibit. (I have no personal knowledge of
such groups.) Has anyone considered the possibility that the
University's position might be that it is sufficient that they do not
actively support those groups? Which mitzvos are included in the "basic
Jewish principles" which are important enough to make an issue of?
Perhaps the University has decided that the press (MJ included) is
blowing this matter out of proportion? Perhaps the same Roshei Yeshiva
(if any) who approved policy for Einstein on Shabbos also agreed that
these student groups could be allowed to remain?


End of Volume 18 Issue 48