Volume 18 Number 76
                       Produced: Sun Mar  5  6:56:10 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arameans and camels
         [Danny Skaist]
Auto Insurance
         [Eliyahu Teitz]
Book Request - Toras HaOleh by Ramah
         [Josh Backon]
Cantillation of the Torah and Haftarah
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
Codex Synaticus
         [Simon Streltsov]
Errors in current Torah
         [Jonathan Katz]
Jewish Belief in Afterlife 18 #64
         [Neil Parks]
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Purim/ Parasha Zachor Torah reading
         [Chaim Schild]
Rav Schwab
         [Eli Turkel]
Trope - v18#61
         [Yehudah Edelstein]


From: DANNY%<ILNCRD@...> (Danny Skaist)
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 95 13:20 IST
Subject: Arameans and camels

>Mike Gerver
>possible, I suppose, that the Arameans existed as a small obscure tribe
>for some time before that. The story of how the Arameans rapidly rose from
>obscurity to conquer almost the entire Fertile Crescent is an interesting
>one, told by Bulliet. They accomplished this by making a discovery which
>had important military implications: they figured out how to breed camels.

The Arameans must have existed.  Yaakov had "nursing camels" with him on
his return from Lavan so the great discovery of "camel breeding" must
have taken place sometime between the marriage of Yitzchak and Rivka,
and Yaakov's return to Canaan.  In which case Lavan could very well have
been Aramean.

>    The earliest references to the Arameans in archeological sites, I think,
>occur around 1300 BCE, not long before Matan Torah (which seems to be in

>Comfortable saddles for riding camels had not been developed then, so they
>were only used for carrying baggage and women, but never ridden by men.

There was only about 240 years from the birth of Yoseph (When Yaakov
left Lavan) to matan torah. If the discovery (camel breeding) had been
new at the time, it might have taken that long to breed the camels and
to develop saddles, (Rachel had a camel saddle however, but possibly not
suitable for fighting) and to learn how to use them as war machines.  Is
250 years an unreasonable time lapse between learning how to breed
camels and using them as a war machine ?

The question is. Did Yaakov, who dabbled with various breeding
techniques (assisted by angels) make the discovery ?  If the discovery
was made by another Aramean, who forsaw the use of camels as war
machines, then it is doubtfull if they would have let him leave the
country with breeding camels.  (which, of course is possibly the reason
why Lavan didn't want him to leave).



From: <EDTeitz@...> (Eliyahu Teitz)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:51:38 -0500
Subject: re: Auto Insurance

Chaim Stern asked about a case of two religious Jews involved in an auto
mishap.  Can they make insurance claims against each other or must they
go to Beit Din?

There is a ruling cited by R. Akiva Eiger ( Choshen Mishpat 3,1 )
concerning a case where one party wanted to go to Beit Din and the other
wanted to go to a guild panel ( the custom amongst the business people
was to have certain cases decided according to these panels ).  The
position brought by RAE was that they must go to the guild panel.

This raises a serious question though; how could they not go to Beit Din.
 The explanation given is that the panel is not a court.  They do not
have an entire legal system upon which they base their decisions.
Rather, they are the group empowered to clarify what is the normal and
usual custom among the traders.  Since theirs is not a legal system the
prohibiton against going to a legal system other than Tora is avoided.
Likewise, since merchants follow the standard rules of commerce in their
area there is an assumtion that both parties accepted those rules as
binding when they entered into a business relationship.  So it reduces
to a situation where two Jews accepted a non-halacha based ruling (
which they are permitted to do ).

Now, back to insurance companies.  It can be argued that when one buys
an insurance policy there is acceptance of the company's decision
process in awarding money and setting rates.  likewise, since the rates
and awards are not based on a legal system, but rather on actuarial
tables and the whim of the adjuster ( or some other, hopefully more
rational method :) ), the possible objections have been eliminated.

Eliyahu Teitz


From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Thu,  2 Mar 95 15:38 +0200
Subject: Re: Book Request - Toras HaOleh by Ramah

One of the best places to get out-of-print or hard to find sfarim is
at Copy Corner, 5022 13th Avenue in Brooklyn. Tel: 718-972-0777

Josh Backon


From: <er@...> (Elie Rosenfeld)
Date: 1 Mar 1995  15:59 EST
Subject: Cantillation of the Torah and Haftarah

Howard Druce writes:

>appears? Why do certain notes appear so rarely e.g. "karnei phoro",
>"shalsheles." Do these notes indicate any special significance?  Since

I don't know about the "karnei para", but the shalsheles definitely has
a significance.  As indicated by its wavering sound, it marks cases of
hesitation or great mental struggle in a given character.  There are
only four such notes in the Torah:

1) When Lot is being brought out of Sodom by the angels, on the word
"vayismahma", "and he hesitated".

2) When Joseph is being tempted by Potiphar's wife, on the word
"vayima`eyn", "and he refused".

3) When Abraham's servant Eliezer is praying to find a wife for
Yitzchak, on the work "vayomer", "and he said".

4) When Moshe offers the last in a series of sacrifices that sanctify
Aaron as the Kohen Gadol [high priest], on the word "vayishchat",
"and he slaughtered".

The first two are rather obvious situations of hesitation.  The other
two were explained in a drasha I heard several years ago.  In both
cases, the hesitation involved someone acting to help another, and thus
giving up a benefit that _he_ would have had otherwise.  Eliezer prayed
to find Isaac a wife, even though he knew that if he failed, and
Abraham's line thus ended, he himself would be the eventual heir of
Abraham's fortune (as Abraham himself indicated somewhat earlier, "...and
the heir of my house will be Eliezer of Damascus").  Similarly, Moshe
himself was considered the Kohen Gadol during the week of sanctification,
and by completing the ceremony, he was giving up this honor to Aaron.

Elie Rosenfeld


From: <simon1@...> (Simon Streltsov)
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:59:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Codex Synaticus

[ A friend of mine is asking this question, if you know a better place
to post it, please tell me - Simcha Streltsov, <simon1@...>]


It doesn't seem to be the appropriate place to ask this question, does
it?  I deal with Russian B/T-s a lot and the subject of Christianity
vs. Judaism often comes about.

Codex Synaticus (found in 1859) is the earliest version of New Testiment

Apparently, it doesn't contain some of the corner stones of C. faith,
such as stories of ressurection, second coming etc. It turned out, that
Vatican had the same version (Codex Vaticanus), but had kept it
"Classified".  The whole story demonstrates the "integrity" of
C. theology and made great impression on some of the people we tried to

Are there any Jewish sources dealing with these documents? Had
H.U.J. put out something about it? The only book we found was Wynstein's
"Codex Syn.".  (Enciclopedia articles are written by C.-s, and they kind
of sweep it under the rag).

 Dr. Michael Agishtein, Director,R&D.
 Hammond Inc., 515 Valley Str., Maplewoood NJ 07040-1396
 tel. 201-763-6000, fax 201-763-7658, email: <misha@...> 

Simcha Streltsov 			     to subscribe send
Moderator of Russian-Jews List		     sub russian-jews <fullname>
<simcha@...>		     to listproc@shamash.nysernet.org


From: Jonathan Katz <frisch1@...>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 1995 15:17:02 EST
Subject: Errors in current Torah

I am looking for a list of variations in the current texst of the Torah. The
types of things I am looking for include:
1) The differences between the current Ashkenazi and Sephardic (and other?)
texts [someone once emailed this information to me; I would appreciate it if
you could email it to me again].
2) Substantiated differences between the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the
text of today.
3) Places in the Torah where Rashi cites a word which is not in out current
edition of the Torah (i.e., he will comment on the extra or missing vav but
there is no extra or missing vav in our text of today).
4) Other differences which are mentioned in the Talmud, etc.

Please email me whatever you know about this. Also, I have a feeling that this
has been covered on mail-jewish in the past; if someone could refer me to the
appropriate mail-jewish issues, that would also be great.

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, Room 241C
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:56:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Jewish Belief in Afterlife 18 #64

> <Sheila2688@...> (Sheila) said:
>The topic is Jews and belief in afterlife.  I am not sure about whether we
>believe in an afterlife, but I think we do not.

We certainly do, although unlike the Christians, we don't speculate so much 
on its nature.  We definitely believe that everything we do in this world 
is in preparation for the "world to come", whatever form that may take.  
Judaism believes in resurrection and in reincarnation--all the other 
nations of the world got it all from us in the first place.

"This msg brought to you by:  NEIL EDWARD PARKS"


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:29:19 +0000
Subject: Mehadrin

David Charlap said that it would be too complicated to enforce what the
rabbinate today calls mehadrin as the normal kashruth standard.  I
  There are specific standards that are followed for mehadrin, including
certain stringencies and excluding others.  Just as it works today, I
would suggest that it continue to work; the only difference I'm
suggesting is that the rabbinate apply those mehadrin standards to all
establishments (i.e., no more "minimally kosher").  Also, by the way,
David stated that "Lubavitch chassidim will not accept shechita that the
rest of the Orthodox world would accept."  My experience has been that
Lubavitchers DO accept the Bada"z/mehadrin standards.  Perhaps, there
are those who don't, but I haven't met them.

In reply to Warren Burstein (about giving hashgahah where various activities
take place):
>Where is the line drawn?  Mixed dancing?  Women singing?  Women who
>are not dressed to halachic standards of modesty?  Does the mashgiach
>ensure that what one's neighbor at the table says isn't Lashon Hara?
>That the TV in the hotel lobby won't be tuned to an inapproprate program?
>That the TV in one's hotel room only shows programs that it is permitted to

I would draw the line in the same place it is drawn today for a mehadrin
hekhsher.  Do you think a place with a belly dancer would receive a
mehadrin hekhser?  IMHO, the place to draw the line is where the
establishment itself (or the person renting it for his affair) has
organized the forbidden action, as opposed to an individual (guest)
choosing to do the forbidden action.

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5658438 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: SCHILD%GAIA%<SDI@...> (Chaim Schild)
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 09:00:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Purim/ Parasha Zachor Torah reading

Both the Purim and Parasha Zachor Torah readings are about Amalek....
Parasha Zachor from Beshalach and Purim from Ki Taytzay in my siddur.
Is that minhag consistent ? Why are they selected as such and not say
the reverse Beshalach for Purim and Ki Taytzay for Zachor ??



From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:44:02 +0200
Subject: Rav Schwab

    As to the stories I repeated about Rav Schwab I heard the first story
about his changing shules in Baltimore but have no way of checking its
authenticity. As to the story of his never getting help with his jacket
I was told the story by Rav Feitman who heard it directly from Rav Schwab
after inadvertantly trying to help him with his jacket and being told not to.



From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 15:24:58 +0200
Subject: Trope - v18#61

To the best of my knowledge the Trope (Taamei Hamikra) are from Sinai
(Torah Sh'Baal Pe). Each group of people, German origin, Sefardic,
Polish etc., will have different customs (minhagim). Originally there
was ONE, but things got 'botched' up going through all the
generations. The same goes for Hebrew, "Lashan Hakodesh". How was the
Torah given on Sinai? How was G-d's and Moshe Rabeinu's pronunciation of
Hebrew. The Isreali accent is different from the Polish jew, German jew
or Hungarian jew. Each person should stick to his Minhag Avotov (customs
handed down generation to generation) for each family.  We don't know
today which is the correct pronunciation, but each custom is sacred and
concidered LASHON HAKODESH. Each person praying or reading the Torah in
his custom, is acceptable for doing the Mitzva. Having a custom for
generations sanctifies the pronunciation eventhough that apparently
foriegn influences changed the pronunciations of the original Lashon
Hakodesh at Sinai. 
 Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


End of Volume 18 Issue 76