Volume 19 Number 52
                       Produced: Wed May 10 23:27:48 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Mordechai Perlman]
         [Zvi Weiss  ]
Kitniyot on Pesach [mail-jewish Vol. 19 #47]
Lecha Dodi (3)
         [Joshua Goldmeier, Akiva Miller, Dave Curwin]
Lekha Dodi
         [Lon Eisenberg]
Passover [seder before shabbos begins] - v19#28
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
Piece of Bread for Hamotzei
         [Shimon Schwartz]
Shiluach HaKen
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Shiluach Haken-Answers
         [Norman Tuttle]
Turning during Lecha Dodi
         [Harry Schick]


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 20:25:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kaballah

 I have a question that has been bothering me for a while.
 Why is it that when people refer to kaballah, and for that matter when
the Rishonim, when they refer to the area of Torah known as kaballah,
they refer to it as "Chochmas Ho'emes".  Why is this apellation given to
this area of Torah and no other?  Surely the gemorah is no less
quintessential truth than kaballah.  Both of them were given at Har

Mordechai Perlman
Toronto, Canada


From: Zvi Weiss		 <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kitniyot

I would like to point out that the Gezera of Kitniyot -- as currently 
applied -- leads to some oddities.
For example, if someone is careful to "watch" grain and flour, etc. we 
are able to produce products that CAN be eaten on Pesach.  On the other 
hand, if someone were to "Watch" Kitniyot (from the time of Ketzira, 
even) and was careful not to allow 18 minutes to pass from when the 
products were "wetted", it appears that one would STILL not be able to 
eat the products!  This does not appear to make any sense.  regardless of 
the 2 reasons supplied (because of how they are shipped or the 
resemblance issue), if one treats the Kitniyot as strictly as the grain, 
itself, it would seem that this should not be more stringent than the grain.
The same question applies to such derivatives as "Corn Oil".  One can -- 
in theory -- extract "oils" from grain and be careful not to allow any 
subsequent fermentation.  Such products -- presumably -- would not be 
invalid for Pesach.  Yet, people adopt the stringency that any Kitniyot 
derivative is prohibited.  Again, this appears illogical.



From: <Andrew_Marc_Greene@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Kitniyot on Pesach [mail-jewish Vol. 19 #47]

In m-j 19:47, Yehuda Edelstein wrote:

>If I understand the restriction of Kitniyot was made for 2 reasons:
>1) the shipping of Kitniyot would be in the same utensils as the 5 grains.
>2) the products produced from Kitniyot resemble those made from the 5 grains,
>   and one would mistaken it as being made from the 5 grains, by which people
>   will come to belittle the isur of Chametz.                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The irony, of course, is that today many less-observant Jews ask the
reasonable question, "Why is corn syrup/mustard/peanut butter/etc. not
kosher for Passover? There's no grain in it, it can't become chometz."
Unfortunately, many of them then conclude that the whole kosher for
Passover situation is yet another case where "those crazy Orthodox have
gone too far", and they end up not only *ignoring* *all* the kfP
requirements, but also holding halacha in general up for ridicule --
which is exactly what #2 above suggests this chumra was intended to

- Andrew Greene


From: Joshua Goldmeier <ujgoldme@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:10:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Lecha Dodi

> >From: <DaPr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
>  If one davens in a shul which has entrances only from the sides, which
> direction does one turn when saying "Bo'ee V'shalom" at the end of Lecha
> Dodi? If we are truly greeting the Shabbos queen, should we not turn to the
> entrance? What should be done?

	I've asked this Shaylo before and the psak is that one should be
turned to the doorway.  If one also has the minhag to turn back to the
Aron and bow, then it may only be a quarter of a turn but that's not the
point.  What I've seen people do is no matter where the door is they
just turn in the opposite direction of the Aron.  When asked why the did
this, most didn't even know of the reason that you're greeting the
Shabbos Queen.

	Shaya Goldmeier  

From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 23:59:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Lecha Dodi

In MJ 19:47, Yehudah Prero asked:
> If one davens in a shul which has entrances only from the sides,
>which direction does one turn when saying "Bo'ee V'shalom" at
>the end of Lecha Dodi? If we are truly greeting the Shabbos queen,
>should we not turn to the entrance? What should be done?

Does this queen need a door to come in thru? Why not just turn to the
back?  If you want to respond that the back is no better than the door
so we should face the door, then my response is that there are some
small shuls (and shteiblach especially) which have entrances *only* in
the front. So what should *they* do? Therefore my suggestion to always
turn to the back of the shul.

(I just know someone is going to take me to the extreme and challenge me
with "What about a shul in the round?" So let me define "the back" as
the opposite end from the Aron (ark). Draw a line from the aron to the
center of the circle, and all would face parallel to that line.)

Akiva Miller

From: Dave Curwin <6524dcurw@...>
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 02:05:11 EDT
Subject: Lecha Dodi

 In Dmut V'Koma, by Efraim Yair, the story is told of Rav Goren's visit
to Kibbutz Tirat Tzvi. He writes that when the chazzan starts to
sing "boi b'shalom ateret ba'ala", everyone turns to the entrance. Since
in Tirat Tzvi, they always pray towards the south (towards Yerushalayim),
they face north during the end of Lecha Dodi. Rav Goren pointed out to
them though, that they shouldn't face towards the door, as if shabbat
was a physical guest, that enters by means of a door. Shabbat is "the 
guest of all Israel, and is purely spiritual." Therefore, one should
turn to the west, towards the sunset, to show that Shabbat has arrived.
This would seem to be regardless of the direction of the aron kodesh,
or the exit of the shul.

David Curwin		With wife Toby, Shaliach to Boston, MA
904 Centre St.          List Owner of B-AKIVA on Jerusalem One
Newton, MA 02159                   <6524dcurw@...>
617 527 0977          Why are we here? "L'hafitz Tora V'Avoda"


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:58:26 +0000
Subject: Re: Lekha Dodi

This issue was discussed previously.  IMHO, the correct direction to
which to turn is to the west (it doesn't matter where the doors or ark
are located).

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5659578 Fax:+972 3 5658205


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 22:45:08 +0200
Subject: Passover [seder before shabbos begins] - v19#28

On a regular Friday night, especially on summer nights in the U.S., U.K.,
Sweden, Israel, the Shabbos is ushered in earlier, before Shkiya (sunset), 
1 1/4 hour (rabbinical hour) and Kiddush is made. The only problem is to repeat
the ful Shema after nightfall. Kiddush and eating Matzah Peseach night, why
should it be different. The Kiddush atleast is not less equired than Kiddush
Friday night (this year it coincided). The Matzah eating is also obligatory
from the Torah (even today), why can't one start before sunset? In all
likelyhood the eating of the Matzah would be only after nightfall, but should
it be different than Kiddush on Shabbos? Sunset being late certain places and
wanting the children to be up, an hour or more could help.
The second night of Peseach is only in Chul. It's M'derabanon, but to take a
from the first day (which is more sanctified - and also this year it was
Shabbos) an hour off, maybe problematic. In Israel we don't have this problem,
unless Erev Peseach is on Shabbos, then it doesn't seem you may start Peseach
earlier, when it is stil Shabbos.

Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: <schwartz@...> (Shimon Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 18:10:12 +0500
Subject: Re: Piece of Bread for Hamotzei

> >From: Barry L Parnas <BLPARN@...>
> I learned in the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Brura that we should make
> Hamotzei on the largest piece, preferrably a whole piece, of bread
> available.  Tearing off a piece of bread first contradicts this
> instruction.  Furthermore, white bread takes precedence over dark, wheat
> over other grains, etc. 

I question the viability of Barry's last point.  White bread has
historically been considered superior to dark.  Modern nutrition
suggests the reverse with respect to whole wheat (as opposed to "dark,"
from added molasses) bread.  Perhaps whole grain bread should be
preferable today, at least to those of us who do indeed prefer the
taste.  Kinneret (?), in particular, sells whole wheat frozen challah
dough, in addition to the regular dough.

On a related note, I spent a Friday night some weeks ago at the home of
a local rav.  After making kiddush on red wine and saying hamotzi, he
drank white wine with the blessing "hatov v'hametiv" [Blessed...who is
good and does good].  (This blessing is made when having a second,
superior wine, after blessing "borei p'ree hagafen.")  I asked whether
we automatically consider red wine superior, as is the historical
halacha.  He replied that in the case, the white wine was superior, so
-it- merited the "hatov v'hametiv."  OTOH, he -did- use the red wine for
kiddush, so one can read this both ways.



From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 11:29:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Shiluach HaKen

FYI: The term is 'Shiluach HaKen' and not 'Shiluach HaKan.' The pasuk uses
the term 'Kan Tzipor' -- Kan is the Smichut form of the word 'Ken', and
'Kan' can not stand by itself... 



From: <ntuttle@...> (Norman Tuttle)
Date: Mon, 8 May 95 18:03:01 -0400
Subject: Shiluach Haken-Answers

I referred the questions posed by David Kramer (<DTK1950@...>) on the
Mitzva of Shiuach Haken to R. Breslauer of Cong. Beis Tefilla in Monsey.
This shul has had the Zchus (meritorious opportunity) of performing the
Mitzva within the past year.  Thus the answers are R. Breslauer's, but
the mistakes in transposing them to the computer are mine.-N.T.

>1.  The bird roosting *must* be the female to be eligible.  Can I be
>guaranteed that the mourning dove roosting is a female?
Not guaranteed but probably.

>2.  The birds and hatchlings must be a kosher variety.  Is a mourning
>dove kosher?
It is possible.

>3.  Is a nest on private property, off the road, considered eligible for
>the Mitzvah?
If it is a protected area (fenced in) no!

>4.  Am I eligible to perform the mitzvah if I have do not intend to use
>the eggs? I could use them as fertilizer for my plants. Please no flames
>from animal rights activists -- although the question of Tza'ar Ba'alei
>Chaim (cruelty to animals) does come to mind :-)

>5.  Do you make a Bracha?  At what point? With Hashem's name?
No Bracha.

>6.  Can I take one egg at a time and get two Mitzvahs?

>7.  If the eggs hatch can I still perform the Mitzvah? Must I? (I'm not
>sure I have the stomach to grab the hatchlings!)

P.S.  In private conversation with Rabbi Breslauer, it seems that part
of the reason for not making a Bracha is because of doubts in specifics
of the mitzva such as whether the bird is Kosher.  However, he
definitely wrote above "No Bracha" so it would seem that this would be
true even if specifics are known.  While not an ornithologist (is that
the proper term?), I would venture that the surname "dove" probably
marks your bird as kosher, but R. Breslauer was less venturous.  I would
infer from the information in front of me, & R.  Breslauer's answers,
that you would not have to perform the Mitzva because of the location of
the nest (it seems to me that "under the car port of my house" would be
a protected area), but I'm sure you can read his responses yourself.

Nosson Tuttle (<ntuttle@...>, ntuttl01@west.poly.edu)


From: Harry Schick <75773.171@...>
Date: 09 May 95 21:06:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Turning during Lecha Dodi

As far as I know it was originally sung in a field in Tsfat where
obviously the entrace was not an issue. I believe that there are
Kabbalistic reasons to turn to the West although at this time I can't
locate them.


End of Volume 19 Issue 52