Volume 19 Number 72
                       Produced: Sun May 28 23:01:02 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Airline meals during the Nine Days
         [Art Werschulz]
Becoming a Grandfather
         [Eli Turkel]
Can Jews have non-Jewish friends? I hope so...
         [Joshua Teitelbaum]
Hakaras Hatov (Appreciation)
         [Akiva Miller]
Hamayvin/Hamaskeel Yavin
         [Michael Frankel]
Hameivin yavin
         [Larry Rosler]
Molad time vs. Standard time
         [Hillel E. Markowitz]
Question on Honoring Parents
         [Aryeh Blaut]
Sefer Torah Recycling Network
         [Uri Meth]
Yom Haatzmaut &  Ponevetz
         [Meir Shinnar]
Yom HaAtzmaut and Gedolim
         [Simmy Fleischer]


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:46:16 -0400
Subject: Airline meals during the Nine Days

Hi all.

I will (alas) be travelling to Park City, UT during the Nine Days, for a
professional conference.  (Kosher food will be a neat trick.  I think
I'll be packing some matzah and sardines.)

Kosher airline meals are invariably fleishig.  What do most people do in
this situation?  (I seem to recall this being discussed previously on

 Art Werschulz (8-{)}  "Ani m'kayem, v'lachen ani kayam." (courtesy E. Shimoff)
 GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
 InterNet:  <agw@...>
 ATTnet:    Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 08:43:52 +0300
Subject: Becoming a Grandfather

     Having just become a grandfather for the first time I will use the
occasion for some remarks I have heard:

     Why does becoming a grandparent make you human?  Because animals
also have children but do not have grandchildren (any zoologists out
there for verification?)

On the lighter side are the grandparents who said that their sex life
was great: a grandchild every year.

Finally: Why do grandparents get on so well with their grandchildren?
Because they have a common enemy.



From: Joshua Teitelbaum <teitelba@...>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 16:11:01 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Can Jews have non-Jewish friends? I hope so...

My daughter, who is in second grade, attends a school which is a bit to
right of the standard mamklakhti dati schools here (i.e., Zionist, but
separate classes for boys and girls).

The other day she came home and told us that her teacher had told the
girls that "Hashem does not want us to have non-Jewish friends."  While
in the States a few years ago she did have such friends, her parents
have such friends, and so do her grandparents.  The remark upset her.

I had a talk with the teacher (a very nice haredi woman, about 22 or
so), who explained that they were discussing shmitta and how during the
shmitta year one forgave loans to Jews, but not to non-Jews.  This was
because, she said, Hashem did not want us to be friends with non-Jews.

There are two basic questions here: First, is there a "Jewish"
perspective on relationships with non-Jews? Is there a difference
between how a Jew should relate to a "friend," an "acquaintance," or a
"business associate" who are not Jewish?

Second, how should this be taught to children?

My general opinion is that Jews and non-Jews have been in contact with
each other for centuries, often, but not always, with good results,
particularly in intellectual cross-fertilization.  Jews learn from
non-Jews all the time.  It offends my sense of what is right for someone
to tell me or my daughter that she should not have non-Jewish friends.
I think it wise to stay away from the issue of intermarriage here, as we
are talking about children.

Any thoughts?
Joshua Teitelbaum Israel


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 00:16:55 -0400
Subject: Hakaras Hatov (Appreciation)

This is just a little note to thank our moderator and all the posters
for the Torah which you've taught me. There is a tendency to continue
associations from the past into the future, and this tends to prevent
new ideas from entering. But Mail-Jewish brings together people of many
varied viewpoints, in a ( generally :-) ) friendly and honest exchange
of ideas. Only a few of the postings have actually changed my opinion on
any given issue, but many many of them have explained those opposing
views, and helped me give them the respect they deserve. Thank you.

Akiva Miller


From: Michael Frankel <FRANKEL@...>
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 09:49:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Hamayvin/Hamaskeel Yavin

On the origin of the phrase "vehamayvin yavin" a previous poster
suggested the posuk "hayotzair yachad libam hamayvin el kol ma'asayhem"
with the Yerushalmi exegesis noting that the yotzair yachad libam
(i.e. God) kevar hayvin kol ma'asayhem. presumably emphasizing the
employment of the words "hamayvin" and "hayvin" in the same sentence
albeit separated by some other words. Note also that it is the past
tense "hayvin" employed by the yerushalmi derash rather than the future
tense "yavin" as employed in the phrase under consideration.

While not an unreasonable suggestion, I think it much more likely that
the phrase is actually a popular mis-quote of a frequently utilized
phrase of the Ramban's "vehamaskeel yavin" employed literally tens of
times throughout his perush to chumash when he wanted to wink and nod to
the existence of a kabbalistic interpretation shared by the yodiay
chain, the details of which he is not prepared to share with the
uninitiated public (see e.g. ramban's perush to Bireishis: 1/26, 2/7,
6/17,6/18, Shemos 6/2, 15/24, 20/13... etc. etc.).  This interpretation
seems more likely to me as it it maps both the parallel two-word
structure of the respective phrases as well as their similar contextual
usage, both aspects lacking in the previous suggestion.

Mechy Frankel                               H: (301) 593-3949
<frankel@...>                        W: (703) 325-1277


From: Larry Rosler <lr@...>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 7:01:20 PDT
Subject: Re:  Hameivin yavin

> From: <ce157@...> (Eric W. Mack)
> What is the origin of the phrase "Hameivin yavin" (he who understands
> will understand)?

> From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
> I believe that the earliest source is in the Yerushalmi.
> "mah ta'amah 'ha'yotzer yachad libam HAMEVIN el kol ma'aseihem? (Tehilim 33)
> Amar R. Levi ha'yotzer yachad libbam kevar HEVIN et kol ma'aseihem"
> (Yerushalmi, Rosh Ha'Shanah 1:3)
> Note that this source suggests that it refers to God, whereas in modern
> Hebrew it could refer to a smart person who understands from partial
> information or a hint.

Is it possible that the original source is Hoshea 14:10 (from the haftarah
for Vayyetze and Shabbat Shuvah):

Mi hakham v'yaven eleh... (Whoever is wise will understand these things...)

Larry Rosler


From: Hillel E. Markowitz <hem@...>
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 23:09:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Molad time vs. Standard time

> Thus, if the Molad is announced for 12:00 noon, it will actually occur
> at 11:39 AM Israel Standard Time, 9:39 AM Greenwich Mean Time, and 4:39
> AM Eastern Standard Time. I hope this answers your question.
> Unfortunately, I have no sources which I can quote for any of this. If
> anyone can offer support or opposing views, please do so.
> Akiva Miller

The Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists published an article a few 
years ago giving this information.  THe article suggested that the 
equivalent local time be announced as an approximation.  When I announce 
the molad in shul, I say Jerusalem Local Time which is approximately ... 

|  Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz |     Im ain ani li, mi li?      |
|   <H.E.Markowitz@...>   |   V'ahavta L'raiecha kamocha   |


From: <AryehBlaut@...> (Aryeh Blaut)
Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 02:54:15 -0400
Subject: Question on Honoring Parents

One of my fourth graders asked me the following question today and I
thought that it might make interesting discussion:

If someone's parent lost either a couple of fingers (or may be a hand),
would it be proper for a child to play the piano in his/her company?

Any ideas or comments?
Aryeh Blaut


From: <umeth@...> (Uri Meth)
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 09:54:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sefer Torah Recycling Network

This is a posting for a freind of mine, Mr. Mark Burt, who does not have
acces to the internet.


	In December 1994, B"H I was placed in a situation of playing
Shadchan (matchmaker) for a Sefer Torah (Torah Scroll) and the Yishuv
Bat Ayin in Gush Etzion, Israel.
	On a Motzoai Shabbos, I attended a singles Melave Malka in
Flatbush, NY.  Instead of meeting my Bashert, I met up with a Mitzvah.
Jerry and Devorah Stone spoke about the need for a Sefer Torah for Bat
Ayin.  I told the Stone's that I could make no promises, but that I
would take the need to heart as I returned to Philadelphia. Just as
Eliezer davened to Hashem and immediately found Yitzchak's Shiudduch, so
too, the first person that I spoke to, Rabbi Mordechai Young, had been
storing a Posul (non-kosher) Sefer Torah in the Yeshiva of Philadelphia
for 15 years.  Rabbi Young and Rabbi Kaminetsky, Rosh Yeshiva of
Philadelphia Yeshiva, helped to complete the transfer of the Sefer Torah
to the Sofer (scribe), Rabbi Yerachmiel Chafkin, which took place in the
last week of December, 1994.  Rabbi Chafkin repaired the Sefer Torah
over a two month period.
	To make a long story short, Rabbi Daniel Cohn, Rav of Yishuv Bat
Ayin, came to America on a fund raising mission just after Pesach, and
he returned to Eretz Yisroel with the Sefer Torah.  And so an idea is
born, "An idea whose time has come".

a) Donations of Sifrei Torah, either Kosher or Posul.  Great for shuls with 
   diminishing communities who want their legacy continued thru a village 
   or Yishuv in Israel.
b) Retired Sorfim with deep feelings of love of Israel who would donate 
   their time to undertake major repair of Posul Sifrei Torah.
To establish a network to satisfy a need of many villages and Yishuvim
in Yehuda, Shomron, and the Golan Heights, to help them become Places of
Torah, to make them whole, to give strength to residents and to help
create irrefutable facts and realities on the ground.

All interested parties, please contact:

Mr. Mark Burt
(215) 473-6459

Uri Meth                (215) 674-0200 (voice)
SEMCOR, Inc.            (215) 443-0474 (fax)
65 West Street Road     <umeth@...>
Suite C-100, Warminster, PA 18974


From: <meir@...> (Meir Shinnar)
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 15:29:12 -0400
Subject: Yom Haatzmaut &  Ponevetz

I was asked by Zvi Weiss and David Kramer to document my statement that
Rav Kahaneman zt"l threw bahurim out of the yeshiva at Ponevetz for
saying Tahanun on Yom Haatzmaut.

My source is from three independent people who have told it to me over
the last twenty years.  Two were students at Ponevetz in the 1960s.  The
third had heard it from his rabbeim.  Two of them had heard a reason
given, that it was denial of hashgacha.  I do not know what exactly
thrown out - did it mean suspension or expulsion.

I do not know whether this was continued under R. Shach.  However, from
the written record, in the 1960s, both R. Kahaneman zt"l and R.
Levenstein, zt"l, the mashgiach of Ponevitz in the sixties, had a very
pro zioni position.

R. Kahaneman has an article that is reprinted at the end of the Seder
for Yom Hatzmaut, printed by Misrad Hadatot.  In it, he describes his
reaction to the "Nissim and niflaot." (Miracles and wonders)

R. Levenstein zt"l says, in relation to the creation of the state and
the Six Day War (this is from R. Kasher's HaTekufa Hagedola, p. 3.)
that maybe the reasons for the "Nissim gluim" (open miracles)of our time
is that the rasha claims If only I had seen, I would have believed.
Therefore, hashem gave us "marot elokim", (visual manifestations of
hashem) in order to nullify these excuses.

To him, the religious significance of these events was so clear that its
rejection was the true sign and test of a rasha.

The position of R. Shach, as far as I know, is quite different from these 

Finally, I do not have a written source for the event I described.
Gilad Gevaryahu has told me that he has seen it in print, and is trying
to locate it (anyone else seen it?)

Personally, I would not be surprised if it never was printed.  There is
now a tremendous censorship that rewrites history and omits the fact
that so many gdolim were pro Israel.  To cite one notorious example,
when R. Zevin's zt"l HaMoadim BeHalakha was translated into English, all
the pro Israel statements in it were eliminated.  Events that have not
yet made it into print are even easier to omit and deny that they ever
happened.  Thus, for another example, you would not know from the recent
biography of R. Kaminetsky zt"l, that when he was in Toronto, he was
active in Mizrahi.  The destructive impact of this blatant censorship on
the notion of Mesora and Torah shebeal pe deserves another thread.

Meir Shinnar


From: Simmy Fleischer <sfleisch@...>
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:31:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Yom HaAtzmaut and Gedolim

I have been following the debate on Yom HaAtzmaut with much interest and
have seen halachic arguements on both sides (even though I don't agree
with the "anti chag" camp) One part of this discussion that greatly
disturbed me was the assertation by Joe Goldstein in 19 #49 wherein he
assserts that no GADOL (empahasis his) support or advocates saying
hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

First off a previous poster has already quoted from the rabbanut
haresheit Rav Goren and other rabbanim regarding the halachic requiremnt
of saying hallel and suspending the aveilut of sefira for yom
HaAtzmaut. Second who is Joe to decide who is a gadol or not.? I think
that most everyone will agre that Rav Goren Rav Kook etc are talmidei
chachamim (even though there are those who find their views
controversial) No one is saying that you must accept the psak halacha of
the Rabbanut Harashet, Rav Goren etc but at least respect it. Don't
forget that its a major aveira to speak disparginly about anyone
especially a talmid chacham. I once read a story about Rav Kook and I
think it was the satmar rebbe, obviously two Rabbanim with very
different halachic opinions, who when they were both in the same place
didn't ignore each other or fight but rather they gave each other the
kavod due to a talmid chacham.



End of Volume 19 Issue 72